Joanne Waldman: 0:00

I had a client who was a single person, got laid off experiencing a lot of fear. So I asked her to come up with another word using the letter F to replace fear, and she came up with footwork and she said, every time I feel fear, it tells me I have footwork to do. I have something to do. I. So using things like that to help reframe a perspective. The other thing I have is a visualization that I do, and I can use it specifically for retirement and it's called from frustrating to fascinating, and I take them through this visualization of this frustrating situation. It could be their retirement and how they feel and what they see and what they think around it. And then we reframe and we switch. And now it's fascinating. And what changes, what shifts? It's pretty phenomenal. If they can do it.

Yasmin Nguyen: 1:01

Welcome back to The Real Retirement Show. My name is Yasmin. Here with my co-host Kathleen. Whether you're retired or thinking about retirement, we delve into the multifaceted world of retirement beyond the finances. This isn't your typical retirement discussion. It's a vibrant journey into what retirement truly means in today's world. We bring you real stories from real retirees and experts discussing real challenges, surprises, joys, heartaches, and the myriad of emotions that come with retirement. From addressing family dynamics to mental and physical health, to finding purpose, we tackle the issues that truly matter to retirees and those thinking about retirement. Our special guest today is Joanne Waldman. With more than 30 progressive years in the career transitions field, Joanne is a trailblazer in the retirement coaching world. I. For 18 years, she served as the director of training with retirement options and has extensive background as a webinar leader with the International Coaching Academy and Coaching Cognition. She's the owner of New Perspective Coaching where she works with clients to plan their second or third reinvention into retirement. A professional certified coach through the International Coaching Federation, a board certified coach through the Center of Credentialing and Education, and through the National Career Development Association in 2009, she was selected as the career practitioner of the year. In 2021, Joanne was honored with the Retirement Catalyst Award from the Retirement Coaches Association. Joanne received a retirement coaching certification through retirement Options. She's also a licensed professional counselor in the state of Missouri, a nationally certified counselor, and a nationally certified gerontological counselor. Joanne is a co-author of Out of the Box Retirement Creative Ideas. Roles, role models and possibilities, and has been quoted as a retirement expert in Kiplinger's, Forbes, wall Street Journal, market Watch, and Where To Retire Magazine. We are so delighted and honored to have you here, Joanne. Thank you for joining us.

Joanne Waldman: 3:23

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here too.

Yasmin Nguyen: 3:27

Now, Joanne, I am just curious how this illustrious, career started and what inspired you to explore retirement as an area of your focus.

Joanne Waldman: 3:38

Well, I wanna go back to when I was 19. my father was unfortunately dying and the last conversation we had was that he couldn't die because he hadn't done everything he wanted to do in his life. He was 50 and he died a week later. And that really sort of stuck in my head, in terms of its importance for everyone to do what they can with the time they have in their life. And that I became, a counselor. and, it propelled me in terms of the work that I did. later on, I, I took a lot of courses in college around, like aging and, psychology. And I continued on with that kind of work. I actually eventually did a fellowship at St. Louis University in gerontology, which was really interesting. it was a medical fellowship and I was the only non-medical person in the program, so I, I learned a lot. I met my mentor when I was in my, probably mid twenties. I was the, president of the Missouri Career Development Association at the time, and he was the president of Missouri Adult Development and Aging Organization. We met at a conference and, We just clicked. He had done research and was doing retirement work in the seventies, way before everybody else. So he taught me a lot. And, I then, eventually went to work for an organization that did outplacement. And, in 1993 I worked with a company president who retired. So really my first retirement client. And then in 96, Mel and KT in Monsanto had some big layoffs and this organization came to me and said, put together a retirement program. So I went to my mentor and he helped me put together a program and it goes from there. He owned retirement options and when coaching came up and we were connected and he said, I think we have a coaching program here. That's when we started training non-financial retirement coaches.

Yasmin Nguyen: 6:04

Well you've had a long career as well too, Joanne, and I'm curious, has there been a pivotal moment in your life or career that's really shaped your philosophy on retirement? I.

Joanne Waldman: 6:16

I think really back to my dad working, thinking about him and what happened to him. and wanting to help other people not have that happen to them. And then meeting Dr. Johnson, my mentor. I think those two combined were pretty pivotal in, in my career and work I.

Kathleen Mundy: 6:38

Joanne, you have a unique approach when helping retirees. How did you develop that? I.

Joanne Waldman: 6:45

as both a counselor and a coach, I think I come at it a little differently maybe than some people. And really, I think just my experience and my training have helped me develop the way I work with clients. I've trained hundreds of non-financial retirement coaches and life coaches, and having that I think also brings a unique perspective to all this. Because, I've been, taught them the foundations of all the work and I can see how, the neat thing is how that sort of ripples out still in, in the universe today.

Yasmin Nguyen: 7:26

Joanne, you've been so instrumental in shaping the careers of those professionals that are out there practicing and helping clients navigate the non-financial aspects of their journey. And I'm curious, what have you learned in training so many people through the various different process of being professionals in this field?

Joanne Waldman: 7:46

when I wrote my own coaching model, what I'd like to do is take people from who am I to, who I am. And I think that's really important in the work that I do. what I've learned training people is that, Sometimes it's difficult to retrain ourself as a coach, as opposed as done as a consultant or giving advice. so I think that's important. What I've learned is that there's no one right way. I just talked to an old student of mine who was getting some additional training. in this training, they were telling him he was doing it wrong. and I've encountered that on more than one occasion. That, there's, my father again taught me that there was more than one way to the top of the mountain. So we all can take a different path as a coach, as long as we're still coaching and not telling people what to do. I think there are many ways that you can do this and many modalities that you could use. and it's so interesting, again, back to when I was training coaches and they had to create their own coaching model to see how people did that. one person was an artist and did a piece of artwork and another was a poet and used poetry and there's. every client is unique and we have to really take them where they are

Yasmin Nguyen: 9:10

Speaking of unique clients, what are the challenges that your, the clients that you focus on experiencing? what's going on in their lives, and is there a specific niche that you focus on?

Joanne Waldman: 9:21

I'll start with the challenges. I think everybody is challenged with meaning and purpose. who am I in this world? One of the questions I love to ask is, why are you on this planet? I don't ask a lot of why questions. That's the only one I'll ask. So to help people figure out who they are and why they're here and in their later lives, how we can help piece all that together. Where to live has come up quite a few times lately. it's the number two question in retirement is it's been, an interesting one for a lot of my clients. and, career kinds of things. I'm a career counselor by trade so a lot of my clients. Don't wanna stop working, and they might not necessarily wanna do what they were doing before, or they might wanna do a piece of what they were doing before, or they wanna give back in some capacity, which maybe they didn't have the ability to do earlier in their career.

Kathleen Mundy: 10:25

Joanne, I should have probably asked this question a little bit earlier, and it ties in with the previous. What makes your approach to retirement coaching unique? I.

Joanne Waldman: 10:34

being a counselor and a coach, I can combine that, it gives me, an insight into. Maybe different things that, that other people don't have.'cause I trained so many people, I have a good idea of what's going on with clients, with, other people I, supervised over the years. understanding what's running the show underneath for clients, I think is something I do very well. everyone I believe is challenged with these belief systems that they have and I think the number one, difficult belief system that we all deal with is that I'm not good enough. And I think it shows up in so many ways and helping clients. Work through that. I've had so many clients over the years who had never been allowed to do what they wanted to do, and that's been important too. They may see this as their last shot to really do what they love. And helping clients get to that point, is really important.

Yasmin Nguyen: 11:40

Joanne, when you talk about this common belief that I'm not good enough. How do you help your clients navigate that and really step into, the next chapter with, perhaps a different perspective?

Joanne Waldman: 11:54

I love doing that. you know, my business is new perspective coaching, so that, that's really fun. the number one question is pointing out, is that the truth? what's really going on with you? let's look at who you are, who you've been, and find the good, find the positive. I just did it a few weeks ago and I'm doing again, I've got a class that I teach from stumbling blocks to stepping stones. I did it for a group of young entrepreneurs, 18 to 24, a couple of weeks ago. But there's a couple of things that you can do. There's some games I play with clients. I call it the perspective game I'll give you an example. I had a client who was a single person, got laid off experiencing a lot of fear. So I asked her to come up with another word using the letter F to replace fear, and she came up with footwork and she said, every time I feel fear, it tells me I have footwork to do. I have something to do. I. So using things like that to help reframe a perspective. The other thing I have is a visualization that I do, and I can use it specifically for retirement and it's called from frustrating to fascinating, and I take them through this visualization of this frustrating situation. It could be their retirement and how they feel and what they see and what they think around it. And then we reframe and we switch. And now it's fascinating. And what changes, what shifts? It's pretty phenomenal. If they can do it. 20% of people can't visualize. They have to write instead. So we can journal about it. and I had somebody one time I worked with who said as he was looking at his retirement and going through his past years. she took what he called failures and reframe them to springboards for future success because really they were transformative for him to move forward. And he was able to say it wasn't failure really truthfully anymore. It was something profound for him.

Kathleen Mundy: 14:15

It sounds though, as though you have, developed some of your signature exercises and frameworks that help your clients and, particularly go through that, transformative stage in their life. Is there anything that you can dialogue today about that you feel works specifically well?

Joanne Waldman: 14:36

when I was. With retirement options and learned to use two non-financial assessments, the Life options profile, the retirement success profile, and that was really the foundational piece for the work that I did with my clients. and there've been some great exercises over the years, that through all that, and powerful questions. that I have loved. My favorite, powerful question is, how can you be creative with change? Because I don't think those two words go together, and I think it sparks something, at least in me and on other people. another exercise I've used, I used it with, I wanna say it was Boeing, a group of executives from Boeing. And we were looking at what we call the six life arenas, and that's career, family, relationship, self spiritual life, and leisure. And this particular exercise looked at, you have a hundred percent of your time. That you're using now and then how are you gonna use it in retirement? So where were they using their time now? And what was so fascinating, these executives realized that 90% of their time was being spent in career. What does that leave for? Everything else? Not much. So what did they wanna do in retirement, but not just wait till retirement? What can you change shift right now to start that process? So I used that I with a lot of people for them to say, oh, we don't really have 120% to, we have a hundred percent in all this. And how you divvy it up is how is okay for you? But when you, how it was skewed if 90% was in one area and didn't leave much for them, or family or leisure or, working with a lot of these people, some of them never had a leisure life. Now, when you asked about my clients, I've usually worked with pretty high level individuals. Company presidents. I worked with a four star general one time, which was really interesting. I worked with head of not-for-profits head, and a lot of these people just didn't have time for leisure. I can remember one client in particular, I was trying to get him to think about what leisure he might like in retirement and he, he had never. Thought about equating learning with fun. He said, I'm a chemist by trade. I have an MBA. Why would I want to be a lifelong learner? What would I wanna learn? He told me he was interested in wine making. I guess there's probably some chemistry and wine making, but I said, what a, what would be interesting in terms of wine making? you'd never thought about taking a class and thought, no, that might be really fun. I. The other thing he came up with was that maybe he would do a hobby with his grandchild, a way to connect with his young grandchild. that was an aha moment.

Yasmin Nguyen: 17:55

Those are some powerful examples. Then just, the way that you've helped your clients really not only reframe, but shift their perspective. Right. That then also really changes their outlook and the direction that they can go.

Joanne Waldman: 18:08

I'd like to share another story around that

Yasmin Nguyen: 18:09

Yeah. Yeah. Please.

Joanne Waldman: 18:11

had a client, who was an attorney in a large organization. She was like number five in this very powerful, well-known organization. Unfortunately, her husband had died 12 years prior, and she kept saying, I, I can't make a decision without him. and, I challenged her a little bit. you make these important decisions at work. I know you can make decisions. And one of the things she had never done was cleaned out his desk in her house. She just couldn't do it. and I do something called a VIP day with a client where we might spend the whole day together. And in this instance we did, and the goal was to clean out her husband's desk. So in the morning we met early, talked about what she wanted to do and what the process might be like and what some of the roadblocks might be. And how she wanted to approach it. And she decided she needed to have some fun, again, fun around doing this. So she said, I'm gonna make it a dance party and play my music that I love and move while I do it. And we talked again at noon and she gotten through some of it and she found some things that were upsetting, but she was making progress. And then by the end of the day. When we had our last call, she had cleaned out his desk and was able to do this task that had put off for 12 years. I think you've, again, take the client where they are, helped her figure out a way to get through it. We chatted in between when she found books that he had written notes in, and she didn't wanna get rid of that kind of stuff, but, that was something she could cherish.

Kathleen Mundy: 20:01

Joanne, I was gonna ask you if you could share a story with us that, a client had a major breakthrough, but that certainly is one. There's no question. Is there another one you might be able to share with our audience?

Joanne Waldman: 20:14

yeah, I had a guy a while back who was probably one of my younger retirees. He'd sold a business and didn't need to work, but he was working for a friend and really hating it. and he wanted to figure out what to do, and he was a really good business person and he liked doing what he called ethical business deals, and he just felt like it might be difficult for him to take money for that. So I helped him reframe, ethical, the ethical business deals. Not only was he helping himself in this instance, but he was really helping the other person as well. And he was then able to move forward making what he called these ethical business deals and not feeling guilty about what he was doing because he had reframed what it meant to do. That. it was a huge breakthrough for him because he was really stuck

Yasmin Nguyen: 21:17

with the stories that you've shared so far, it's very evident that, you are indeed a retirement catalyst. the recipient of the award, but in many ways, you're activating, these changes in people that, wouldn't have happened without you being an integral part of that. I'm curious, you in many ways have played the role of the coach of coaches, then you've trained so many, and from your experience, what makes the difference between a good coach and a great coach? what are some of the qualities, what are some of the ways in which they practice their profession that, really makes them outstanding?

Joanne Waldman: 21:57

I think the first place that we come, a great coach comes from is curiosity. Always have to be curious. I. Second place. It may sound weird, but I think the second place we come from is a place of love. A good coach comes from a place of love, that we don't set the agenda, we don't tell them what to do. That a great coach, can shift, shift in terms of what they're hearing or sensing. I heard somebody recently coach and I thought he did a masterclass in coaching. He used some lovely analogies to help the client understand where he wanted to take the client. he checked in with the client, make sure that. That they were okay. he set the agreement, which I find a lot of coaches don't do that. So when the client started to veer from the agreement, he went back and said, look, we've had a fork in the road. You said you wanna do this, now you're talking about this. Go back and choose one today, we'll do one. helping the client understand in terms of. Giving good feedback and understanding that feedback is not opinion. The feedback is just what we hear and what we notice. and the good, I think the great coaches can dance in the moment with the client can really move and aren't stuck in one way of doing something.

Yasmin Nguyen: 23:28

It also reminded me, Joanne, of a previous conversation that we've had, which is around how, to ask questions that may not necessarily be leading, but questions that help, reveal and discover. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Joanne Waldman: 23:42

Yeah. Asking open-ended questions. not the, have you, did you, could you, I. More or not the, no, getting rid of the shoulds and all those kinds of things. learning how to ask open-end questions is not easy. I, sometimes when I'm coaching, I have to sit and think for a minute.'cause what's in my head is the closed question and how do I move that around and make it an open question? the other thing too, sometimes I think it's important to use humor and coaching. one of the favorite questions I ever came up with, the client was upset about something and having to run a program and being upset. And I said, how can you be elegantly pissed? and so it, it got a laugh, but it got them thinking about how to get through the particular situation they needed to get through.

Kathleen Mundy: 24:38

as you were, describing how you do this, how you do your coaching practice, I had a thought and it reminded me some of the dialogue you were using reminded me of what a shepherd must feel i. Respond to its charges, And so gentle and encouraging but staying on track, but being flexible enough to move as the situation demands and still stay focused on that result and, I think that's a, for me, that's a really lovely way to think of it as opposed to, sometimes the perception is that it's going to be difficult and it's going to mean I have to reveal things and I'm not ready for all this yet,

Joanne Waldman: 25:22

Well, I mean, coaching is not easy. It's not a straight line. it goes like this and the journey brings a lot of learning for us as well as our clients. if it was like this, it might be pretty boring. I had to confront a retirement client the other day, in a gentle way. I'm not, I didn't wanna be, in his face. But he's not doing his 20-year-old a lot of good by, not teaching him life skills. Let's put it that way. And I basically had to say, how is this helping again, it wasn't harsh. but it was something that needed to be put out there. And again, you know, trying to take my opinion out of it, But, and. helping clients get out of the shoulds kind of things and learning to choose to do things. understanding also commitment versus trying. clients will use certain language if they're committed and other language when they're not as committed. And sometimes you can say, I didn't hear your commitment when you said you were trying to do X, Y, z. That's feedback. That's not opinion, that's not judgment.

Yasmin Nguyen: 26:40

Joan, you've got so many great nuggets of wisdom to share, and I believe on your website you have, a resource that, that you give various different tips and advice. And I'm curious, what are, some of the top tips that you found most impactful, that, resonate with people, especially those who are preparing for retirement?

Joanne Waldman: 27:00

thinking about it, planning for it, and talking about it. I have a really good example that's happening right now. And somebody's not my client, but they made this, and I, the word keeps coming to my mind is willy-nilly. That's not the best word or way to put it, but he made this snap. Decision to retire. didn't think about it much. Just said, I should retire. I'm 72. and when he told the people at work that he was gonna retire, they put out, a letter to his clients and he thought, uhoh, I didn't even tell my wife. So I better tell her now before other people start telling her, and if he had talked to other people, I think what would've happened would've helped to make a plan that he could have maybe gone down to three days a week just to test this out. put that big toe in the water and see what retirement is two days a week, rather than just saying, I'm done and going and not having a plan. So, those I think are really important things to do. Have a plan, talk to people, get a coach. find somebody who can help you think through this process. I think that's really important. also think about, your leisure life. some of the biggest problems are boredom. What am I gonna do with all this time? figuring out what your meaning and purpose is, the, that one I think is just huge for so many people. So tho those were some of the tips on there. do the gap analysis. Here's where I am, here's where I wanna be. What do I have to do to get from point A to point B.

Yasmin Nguyen: 28:50

There's so much to consider on this journey and something that's really difficult to do on our own. And I think that's why your work and the way in which you've trained many others as well too, to support people on this journey is so important as, as is the financial piece of the planning.

Kathleen Mundy: 29:10

What I hear is you're helping unravel all of those uncertainties. I think that's really important It's not a shift necessarily, without caution, but it's unraveling all of the intricacies and we talk about a holistic approach to the retirement journey, and so many people get stuck in the financial aspect of it and don't understand. Or perhaps aren't aware of all of the complexities. As you mentioned earlier, 90% of their time and attention and focus was on career. And without that, with all of those other elements within their life, certainly relationships would be one. If you don't tell your wife that you're thinking of this, there might be a little bit of a gap there. So I think unraveling all of those uncertainties is certainly, from what I've, I'm listening to is certainly a talent that you have and a, an amazing service that you're offering your clients and the companies that you work with.

Joanne Waldman: 30:11

Thank you.

Yasmin Nguyen: 30:12

there's so much that we could discuss because certainly the depth and the breadth of this retirement journey is quite vast. and Joanne, we're so delighted and honored that you've taken the time to share with us your wisdom from many decades of work. And so we're so grateful for that. how can our listeners connect with you? About your work.

Joanne Waldman: 30:32

They can go to my website. at new perspective coaching.com. They can call me at(314) 469-3288. Those are probably the best ways to reach me. They can also find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram.

Yasmin Nguyen: 30:49

Well, we'd be happy to share those links and in, contact information in the show notes that people can connect with you directly as we wrap up this short and powerful conversation, are there any last words or thoughts that you'd like to share with our audience?

Joanne Waldman: 31:06

one of the things I like to say is that change is hard, but change is beautiful if we're able to work through it and. Open new doors or new avenues or reinvent ourself. I like taking people on the reinvention tour.

Kathleen Mundy: 31:24

Hmm. That's a nice way to put it. I love that. I love that. And I also love the fact that you provide and think about humor through the process. I. I think that's really a key element in having people understand and diffuse the anxiety they might have. So I really appreciate that you incorporate that.

Joanne Waldman: 31:44

My mentor taught me that humor is a healing gift.

Kathleen Mundy: 31:48

I think you're a amazing gift to all our audience, and I'm sure that they're gonna find lots of nuggets in this conversation that we've had today. And I really wanna tell you how much I've enjoyed it. And it's always nice to hear and learn new tips and tricks. I'm proud to say that I had the advantage of having a conversation with you before, but certainly this is a little deeper and I really appreciate what you've. Explain to us today.

Joanne Waldman: 32:15

Thank you. Appreciate both of you.

Yasmin Nguyen: 32:18

Thank you for taking the time to join us today. If you enjoyed this episode or found it valuable, please subscribe, follow and leave a comment or view on your favorite platform. If you have friends, clients, or loved ones who are retired or thinking about retirement, we invite you to share this show with them. Check out this show notes with links to resources mentioned in this episode@realretirementshow.com. Remember, retirement is a joyful journey we get to experience together. Join us next week for another real retirement conversation.