Sara Geber: 0:00

I think the biggest hurdle in front of solo agers is where am I gonna live as I get older? There's a huge for making things right for people to age in place. Communities are getting involved. to see that because a lot of people will be aging in place But honestly, I think it is a pretty crummy solution for solo agers. A lot of people see that as a kind of a polar decision. Do I age in place or do I move into some kind of senior living environment, which is a good solution for many people. I know thousands of people are very happy in senior living communities, so it's a great option for solo agers who can afford it for one thing. and there are other solutions you might age in place with someone that you're close to, someone that you like. There is more home sharing going on now than ever before, and there are organizations, some local, some national, that help match people to live together reality is that there are a lot of things that can happen to you that would make you less able to continue living alone. So that's what I encourage people to think about, alternatives to living alone.

Yasmin Nguyen: 1:22

Welcome back to The Real Retirement Show. My name is Yasmin. Here with my co-host Kathleen. Whether you're retired or thinking about retirement, we delve into the multifaceted world of retirement beyond the finances. This isn't your typical retirement discussion. It's a vibrant journey into what retirement truly means in today's world. We bring you real stories from real retirees and experts discussing real challenges, surprises, joys, heartaches, and the myriad of emotions that come with retirement. From addressing family dynamics to mental and physical health, to finding purpose, we tackle the issues that truly matter to retirees and those thinking about retirement. Our special guest today is Sarah Zeff Geber. Sarah is the nation's foremost expert on solo aging. She's an author, professional speaker, and certified retirement coach. In 2018, Sarah was named an influencer in Aging by PBS's Next Avenue and is a regular contributor to forbes.com in the areas of aging and retirement. Sarah's been featured and quoted in the Journal of Active Aging Certified Senior Advisor Journal Next Avenue Senior Living Foresight. McKnight's Living, senior Housing Business, and many others. Sarah's book, the Essential Retirement Planning for Solo Ages, A Retirement and Aging Roadmap for Single and Child-Free Adults was published in 2018 and was selected that year as a best book in Aging well by the Wall Street Journal. We are so honored and delighted to have you on our show. Sarah, welcome.

Sara Geber: 3:08

Thank you. happy to be here, Yasmin.

Yasmin Nguyen: 3:10

Sarah, for those of us who have not gotten a chance to get to know you or, follow your work, would you share a little bit about your personal story and what inspired you to focus specifically on the solo aging journey? I.

Sara Geber: 3:22

Yes, I'd be happy to do that. was doing some retirement coaching, back in 2015, 2016, and, noticed about that time that a lot of my coaching clients, as well as my friends and colleagues who were all of my contemporaries, started spending a tremendous amount of time with their aging parents ended up canceling. engagements and whatnot, and I was having a glass of wine with a friend of mine sometime in that period, and I hadn't seen her in the last month. And I said, Sandy, how come I haven't seen you much in this last month? We usually get together pretty frequently. And she said, I've been spending most of my life on an airplane flying back and forth to the East coast. We both live in California. And I have needed to do that because my mom isn't doing well and my brother and I needed to find a better solution to how she was gonna live because she wasn't thriving in the house that she'd been in for the last 40 years. So we ended up, getting her to agree to move into a senior living community. We found one that she really loved Got her, we got her moved in, that wasn't the end of it. Then we had to sell off the furniture that she couldn't bring with her and we had to do tremendous amount of financial jockeying for her and then eventually we had to sell the house and it's really still not over and it's been going on for over a year. I listened to her talk and I looked at her at one point and I said, Sandy. and I don't have children who's gonna do that for us? that really became the question, who's gonna do that for us? That started me on my trajectory of thinking about researching, talking about, and ultimately writing about solo aging.

Yasmin Nguyen: 5:28

Hmm. Sarah. Now when we talk about soul aging, can you help define what solo aging means? Because I think there may be some different interpretations out there.

Sara Geber: 5:37

Yes, there are many different interpretations out there. And just hearing the word, a lot of people assume that, I mean, single people, people who never married, people who have lost a spouse, people who are divorced. and that is not exactly what I mean. I now define a solor as someone who is aging without the support of family, that may include people who have kids. If those kids live very far away if they're estranged, I have a neighbor, for instance, who's become a good friend and she and her husband have one child, a son, and when he was about 30, he had the nerve to fall in love with a Danish woman. Well, where do you think they're living and raising their kids? So is he going to be able to support them as they get older and need some help? don't think so. He now has three kids. They don't have any plans to move out of Copenhagen, that's just one example of just millions of people who have experienced something. I've started calling the family diaspora. I have another neighbor who every Sunday at five o'clock, they have a Zoom meeting with their two adult children who live. Very far away elsewhere in the country. So it's a sort of a fluid definition and people need to self-identify more than anything else. there are sad cases where families have become truly estranged and those people are. Certainly solo agers too. but my original category, and the one I still believe, holds the most credence for being solo agers are people that don't have children. Because after all, when you look around at society and who is caring for the oldest in our communities, it's primarily their adult children. sometimes that kind of caregiving becomes job. For several years.

Kathleen Mundy: 7:51

I have to say, Sarah, I can identify with. your ethos of what you're doing and the comments you just made. Because, I remember one of the first, gatherings that Yasmin and I had when we were doing some research on the topic of aging and retirement. had a group of people in, one of which was a solo. When I hear of solo aging, I remember her and she was a little resentful of what was happening and the information that she was, was made available to her. But I really never really, I haven't thought about your. Concept in those terms until you just explained it. I'm so glad you did because it, it does make a difference if you don't have children you have children that, that live miles or countries away, you're still faced with the situation of who's going to take care of all those needs and make those decisions. And I've gone through helping. An aging parent relocate and it is no small feat.

Sara Geber: 8:59

Yeah.

Kathleen Mundy: 9:00

So I really appreciate and I know that our listeners are really gonna appreciate what we have to offer in today's podcast.

Yasmin Nguyen: 9:06

Sarah, what have you noticed are some unique challenges that Solo Agers faced, that's different from those that may have family or other types of support? I.

Sara Geber: 9:17

Sure. the, I think the biggest hurdle in front of solo agers is where am I gonna live as I get older? There's a huge for making things right for people to age in place. Communities are getting involved. to see that because a lot of people will be aging in place no matter what I say, or do solo agers among them. But honestly, I think it is a pretty crummy solution for solo agers. A lot of people see that as a kind of a polar decision. Do I age in place or do I move into some kind of senior living environment, which is a good solution for many people. I know thousands of people are very happy in senior living communities, so it's a great option for solo agers who can afford it for one thing. and there are other solutions you might age in place with someone that you're close to, someone that you like. There is more home sharing going on now than ever before, and there are organizations, some local, some national, that help match people to live together at, you know, all of the Golden Girls. I think that's probably the best example of home sharing that's out there, and everybody's seen at least one episode of the Golden Girls. they lived together. There were actually two generations living there in that house at one point because, the B Arthur character had, a mother s still Getty that was living with them. And then there were two other women. They were all more or less in their sixties and seventies, I would guess, except for Estelle, who was clearly in her, mid to late eighties. They didn't like each other all of the time, but ultimately they did truly love and care for one another. And the idea of having somebody at home that cares for you, that says, how was your day? That says, look a little concerned about something. of those kind of everyday transactional sort of, discussions that we have and relationship based discussions that we have can't take place. If you're all by yourself many solo agers who do live alone, proclaim that they love living alone, they're independent and they're always gonna be independent. But it's hard to take your, your

Yasmin Nguyen: 11:49

Yes.

Sara Geber: 11:51

self and put it in what may be your 95-year-old body and understand what you'll need at that point.'cause that's a very different picture. People, no matter what you like to think, people do become more frail. They come become less, a less mobile. They become less, less able to do some of the things that they've been doing all their lives, and it may be due to a declining mental condition that will be fall, probably quarter to a third of us. and it may be to a declining physical condition. But regardless of, what you hope will happen to you as you get older, reality is that there are a lot of things that can happen to you that would make you less able to continue living alone. So that's what I encourage people to think about, alternatives to living alone.

Kathleen Mundy: 12:54

Sarah, you mentioned something about the community, whether it be a small community with, the Golden Girls or whether it's a larger retirement community, want you to explain what, in your mind, the misconceptions might be about solo aging.

Sara Geber: 13:10

when you say misconceptions about solo aging,

Kathleen Mundy: 13:14

talked a little bit about some of the challenges that they have, but I'm wondering, you said there's the reality. And then there's the ideology. So what do you think the difference of those two parameters might be?

Sara Geber: 13:28

put in those terms. I think people, again, have a really hard time imagining what they will be like. In 20 years. if you're sitting there listening to this and you're 65 or 70 or maybe 75, and you think, well, you know, I'm doing great. my doctor gives me a clean bill of health and I have a cranky hip that acts up once in a while, or, gosh, I have some dental issues I have to take care of. Those all seem like tremendously surmountable And yes, we probably all know that one 96-year-old who's doing great and still driving and still getting around and has, a clear mind and is still problem solving, that's the extreme exception. And it's getting people to understand that they probably won't quite be the person they are today when they're 95 is. That's the challenge. That's really the challenge because people don't seem to be able to project like that.

Kathleen Mundy: 14:36

Very true.

Yasmin Nguyen: 14:37

Sarah, you, we focused on the living situation, which is a huge, area to plan for and to address. I'm curious, what are some of the other areas specifically that are relevant to solo ages? Like perhaps, you hinted at social aspects, but what else, do solo agers and their support, need to consider, for, preparing for this journey?

Sara Geber: 15:01

Well, the, there's of course the financial aspect and there's the legal aspect. and so much of what I say really pertains to anyone, not just solo agers, but for solo agers. the way I like to think of it is for solo agers, there's no safety net. I have, I have a good friend who, actually is the father of a contemporary of mine who lived to be 99 and in the last five years of his life, I. He ended up feeling like he needed to turn over a lot of his financial stuff, his bill paying, his discussions with his, financial planner, those kind of things. He ended up saying, I'm gonna turn this over to my son because, and bring him up to speed on what the situation is. and he ended up. Bringing in someone to cook for him and to clean. were things that at 96 ish, he just finally said enough. He was a strong, independent guy. He had lost his wife 10 years before and he drove up until the time that he was in his, at least early nineties. and then was again persuaded by his children to ultimately give up the keys. just don't have children that are coming gonna come in and pick up the slack like that. So do we just wait and see? I'll just wait and see what happens. not so safe for solo agers. Planning ahead of time with someone, a younger person that can step in and take over those functions is really important for solo agers.

Kathleen Mundy: 16:51

I think to your point though, I remember hearing speak about the stool, the finance, the legal, the financial, and the social. I really was interested to, to understand how important the social aspect aging was from your point of view.

Sara Geber: 17:07

Yeah, the social aspect is all tied up in where you're gonna live. It's, it is almost completely dependent on that you may be very able to go out and meet friends for lunch and participate in your book club and even go to the gym at this point in your life. just can't count on being able to do that. 10, 15, 20 years from now, you just can't, you may not be able to drive anymore. I'm 75. I have a number of contemporaries who've already stopped driving at night a couple who've stopped driving altogether. yes, we are fortunate in this day and age to have Uber and Lyft and some alternatives to, especially those of us who live in areas without any public transportation. so those are helpful. But having a backup plan really important. So that's the social, the financial and the legal actually need to be assigned to someone you trust to pick up the slack if and when you need that. Now, who knows? You may. End your time on Earth. You may be on the other side of the ground, before you ever need any of this, fine. But that, in my mind, that doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for it because we'd all like to live as long as possible, especially if we're gonna be, healthy enough to enjoy it. So. here in California we have something called a professional fiduciary, and that's someone that literally can come in and be the son or daughter that you don't have that can take over that function. Of course, that costs some money. there are, patient advocates. There are professional guardians, most elder law attorneys. and some they call themselves state attorneys or elder law attorneys. They usually know of people that can do that because they've worked with people in the past and will be working with many more in the future as solo aging becomes much more prevalent. they have resources. So I, that's the first place to go. If you have an attorney that you're working with, he or she is a good place to, to go for that resource. Also, your, county Agency on Aging, your council on Aging, your senior center. They may know of people. this is a countrywide audience listening to this potentially, I don't know what resources you have in your state. I think the first line of defense on this are often. Trusted nieces, nephews, younger cousins. I have a, a younger cousin that's about, about 14 years younger than I am, and she is one of the people that is named on my advanced directive for healthcare and on my power of attorney for finances. Another person that I have named is the son of a very good friend of mine, known that. Their mother, I've known since we were five years old. I've known her son since he was born and I know his values. I know that he's someone I can trust. So these are people. Now I am married, so my husband, of course, is my first line of defense as I am his, but we don't know who's gonna go first. We have no idea. we're both planning as though we might be solo agers. True solo agers. we are solo agers by my definition, but we are both planning as though we might be the one standing, alone.

Yasmin Nguyen: 20:57

Sarah, you had talked about these fiduciaries and also, professionals that are working with people and I'm curious. I. As a, let's say, professional, financial advisor or maybe legal professional who may be working with a solo ager, what are some important questions or things that they need to be aware of that's unique to a client that is, is on the solo aging journey?

Sara Geber: 21:22

there are a number of things that both financial professionals and legal professionals can do to, assist their clients. And as you're probably seeing Yasmin, and I know the financial advisors that I know, and I know a number of them in this area. are seeing are, opportunities to help people fill in the gaps. you wanna say, let's get your family involved, then you can't do that with a solo ager. You need to find some other resources. So I encourage the professionals that I know, both in, in legal and in finance to start collecting. Now start your Rolodex. That's a term that dates me. putting your Rolodex together of resources for your clients. the financial advisors that I know here are already putting together workshops. I do local workshops for solo agers, and they're starting to put their people into my workshops and starting to come up with, they're actually filling the workshops. that's one resource that you can do, that you can create. There are a number of, oh gosh, villages and senior centers around the country that are starting solo ager support groups. I am certainly a big fan of that. I'm applauding every time I see one of those, pop up on my Google alerts.'cause I have a Google alert on anything solo ages and I'm so pleased to see that and I, so I encourage professionals to do that.

Yasmin Nguyen: 23:00

Yeah, well, whenever I have my alerts, mostly you show up'cause you're in the epicenter of a lot conversation Sarah. Uh,

Sara Geber: 23:09

everything anymore.

Kathleen Mundy: 23:11

always try and relate to our, our guests, and I have to say that I have done so with you because my children, I have four children, none of them are close. And we've, thought do we age in place? And I know that you believe aging in place is only good if there's some community around you. I don't wanna be lonely and sometimes aging in place provides that for people, whether they want it or not. Usually they wouldn't. But that is the case. and I'm just wondering, I've learned so much. What are some of the lessons that you've learned from personally dealing with this topic over the last, gosh, 20 years?

Sara Geber: 23:54

I have learned all of the different resistances people have to changing their lifestyle.

Kathleen Mundy: 24:00

Isn't that.

Sara Geber: 24:02

And it's again, that the terms that I put it in today are people are fairly incapable of putting themselves into their 95-year-old bodies. Now, I will say, and I often ask this in the presentations that I make, to anyone. I will ask the question, how many of you raise your hand? how many of you took care of your aging parents? And of course, almost half. At least half the hands go up in almost every setting. Those are the people that get it. They get it. What's in store for them? that's why they're attending my presentation. In fact, usually three quarters of the hands go up. I wouldn't be one of those people because I didn't take care of my aging parents. They both died when I was fairly young, and they was fairly young. They were fairly young, so I never had that experience. Same with my in-laws. those that have had the experience and really seen what I call deep aging, creates the environment that creates and the challenges that creates, really get it that they need to do something to protect themselves.

Kathleen Mundy: 25:18

That's insightful. And I think no one, can predict as you suggest, because, health concerns can happen at any age.

Sara Geber: 25:26

Right.

Kathleen Mundy: 25:26

I'm gonna share this little story. I, because you, I know that it's gonna help you. a good friend of mine, her husband was. Seventies. She's in her late sixties. He had a stroke and passed away. She had suffered from dementia for the last year. they were so low aging parents because her son was miles and miles away and now it is a mess. they can't find their fi, their financials, where it's in a place that was going to be accessible by anyone. They hadn't positioned themselves to have someone else

Sara Geber: 26:03

Yep.

Kathleen Mundy: 26:03

step in with power of attorneys or any estate planning. And it is now become. An extended family's problem, and even though you know she has a child, doesn't necessarily mean, as you said, it could be estranged and it's still you. You have to depend on your own in planning, This happened recently to me that I was made aware of my friends. it's the change that we can't anticipate. And as you said, sometimes people just don't like the lifestyle change if they have to. Make plans for, an extended period of time. You and I are the same age, and when I look at what, I've got another 20, I'm hoping at least 20, 25 years, what is I gonna look like, where do I wanna live? all of those questions come to mind's a little young to even worry about that yet. But, it's

Sara Geber: 26:58

But it's, he's at the right age to start thinking about it and planning for it.

Kathleen Mundy: 27:02

He he is

Yasmin Nguyen: 27:03

speaking of solo aging, I've never been married, don't have a girlfriend, don't have any kids. I am sure 40 plus years is gonna go by, like in a blink of an eye here as well too. So I'm definitely very aware and, wanna be mindful as to what's gonna happen between now and then as well.

Sara Geber: 27:21

sure.

Kathleen Mundy: 27:22

I love that we can have a little levity around this very serious topic.

Sara Geber: 27:26

He says.

Kathleen Mundy: 27:27

one that I think will, and first of all, it will affect everyone whether you are a solo ager or whether you have a friend who is, or someone in your extended family might be. So I depth and breadth of this conversation is a wonderful, element for those, for our audience. And I'm sure that they're gonna share this with a lot of their friends and family as.

Yasmin Nguyen: 27:51

Yeah. Hey, Sarah, I'm curious, has there been a solor that you've been in touch with, worked with, attended one of your events that is an inspiration, like your, something about them that, that really has been a role model for how, fulfillment and joy could be in, in this journey?

Sara Geber: 28:12

Yeah, I've had a number of people in my workshops really take action, once they got it, that they were on their own, they needed to do that. My most recent, I success story, I don't even consider it a success story for me. I think my most wonderful, Example of someone whose eyes were opened by some of the things I said is a woman who through a, a local workshop that I did, and I always do these workshops in person. I. Locally so that pe I can bring in experts and I bring in a, a financial expert. I bring in a legal expert. I bring in, professional fiduciary, and I bring in a senior care advisor. So after listening to me and all of these other experts, she realized that she has a husband who has Parkinson's and they were still living in their. Single family home and before the workshop was over and the workshop lasts six months, we meet once a month for six months.

Kathleen Mundy: 29:21

Wow.

Sara Geber: 29:21

gives people time to actually make some changes and do some of the things we're talking about. So, At the last session, she announced that they had put their house for sale. She had found a senior living community. They were scheduled to move in. She had done the homework. During the six months, she had gone out and looked at a lot of senior living communities and found the one that really appealed to them, and that was within their budget and they're moving That's, that was the most recent and most splashy example I could give you.

Kathleen Mundy: 29:55

Good for you. Good for you.

Sara Geber: 29:57

And good for her. It is. The whole thing is life changing and they're gonna be in a PO position where they're not so vulnerable. there she is. She's our age with a husband who has par advanced Parkinson's. Talk about vulnerable. Okay. No kids.

Kathleen Mundy: 30:17

Let's talk about the vulnerability. and I'm sure that you've found others who've taken your workshop or have been participants in maybe an audience that you've, addressed. Have they spoken or realized their vulnerabilities until you bring it to the forefront?

Sara Geber: 30:32

Well, they've realized it to the extent that they're willing to put themselves in the workshop. I admire people who get themselves outta their comfort zone enough to even come to one of my talks. they've acknowledged at least that they are vulnerable. There's things that they need to set up for themselves as they get older. many of them took care of an aging parent. And they get it, that there's nobody down the line to do that for them. I read a piece of literature when I was first researching all of this about 10 years ago. and of course there wasn't any gerontology literature, but I found some sociology and anthropology literature. And one, I think had said that in the, in all of the. American societies and many of the tribal societies that he had studied. The one conclusion that he could make was that children are the only Morally committed to taking care of their aging parents. That's the only, it's a moral imperative in most societies of the world that children take care of their aging parents. I,

Yasmin Nguyen: 31:52

I can attest to that. Yeah. I currently, myself and my sister, we're actively helping take care of our elderly parents as well too. Yeah. Sarah, this has been such a rich conversation. I, and I feel like there's so many different areas that we can dive deeper, and I know that's why you've written your book and you've got, a number of different talks that you give. How can our listeners connect with you and learn more about your work so that they can be able to either, experience this themselves, but also be able to share it with their communities and clients that they're working with?

Sara Geber: 32:26

the first thing to do if you're new to this whole topic is to buy my book. I'm not self-published. I have a publisher, so I don't make money advertising my book. My publisher might make a few books, but it has now sold over 12,000 copies in six years. So I am, I'm pleased at that and I'm proud of that. it's a good primer. On solo aging, and it's called Essential Retirement Planning for Solo agers. It's available anywhere. You can order it from your local bookstore, which I always encourage. You can buy it from any of the online book sellers. It's available in print. It's available, in, in audio available on Audible. It's available. In, e-reader format, so any way you like to read, it's available.

Yasmin Nguyen: 33:17

Great. I'll make sure we include links to, to your book as well too

Kathleen Mundy: 33:22

What a.

Yasmin Nguyen: 33:23

Sarah, it's so important that you and the community of, thought leaders like yourself who focus on this particular area because I think that it's an often forgotten, segment and it, but it's the reality of so many of us who are aging and whether we are aware of it or not, at some point in time we will be. Alone as well too. So to be prepared is such an important piece. so grateful to have you join us today and just share your wisdom.

Sara Geber: 33:52

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Kathleen Mundy: 33:54

I've loved dark conversation.

Yasmin Nguyen: 33:56

Yeah.

Kathleen Mundy: 33:57

so much.

Yasmin Nguyen: 33:57

any final thoughts before we, we just wrap up?

Sara Geber: 34:01

just I think for everybody, if you aren't a solo ager, I bet you have one in your family or in your community. So might notice that there are solo agers around and encourage them to do some planning up front so they're not left a bad situation. like the story we just heard.

Yasmin Nguyen: 34:24

thank you so much Sarah. So happy that we got a chance to spend some time together today.

Sara Geber: 34:28

Thank you.

Yasmin Nguyen: 34:29

Thank you for taking the time to join us today. If you enjoyed this episode or found it valuable, please subscribe, follow and leave a comment or view on your favorite platform. If you have friends, clients, or loved ones who are retired or thinking about retirement, we invite you to share this show with them. Check out this show notes with links to resources mentioned in this episode@realretirementshow.com. Remember, retirement is a joyful journey we get to experience together. Join us next week for another real retirement conversation.