Dan Haylett: 0:00

you are not leaving money on the table. You are leaving memories and experiences on the table. reframing these subjects in a mo much more emotive way has been the biggest game changer for me. So forget this whole income planning. I talk about retirement memory planning. So what memories do you wanna create with your money? Who do you wanna make them with and how can we fund them? think about the wonderful concept of memory dividends that I talk to a lot of people about, made famous by a number of people. But Bill Perkins Die with Zero book talks about this a lot, this kind of concept that spending your money or memories gives you dividends for life, right? You recall. What you've done with friends and family, and it brings you joy and happiness in later life. So I think it's really important to reframe how we start thinking about this, and thinking about how we spend our money and get it out of money language, out of financial language, and Into real life, and that's been pretty transformational for people. When we start talking,

Yasmin Nguyen: 0:59

Welcome back to The Real Retirement Show. My name is Yasmin. Here with my co-host Kathleen. Whether you're retired or thinking about retirement, we delve into the multifaceted world of retirement beyond the finances. This isn't your typical retirement discussion. It's a vibrant journey into what retirement truly means in today's world. We bring you real stories from real retirees and experts discussing real challenges, surprises, joys, heartaches, and the myriad of emotions that come with retirement. From addressing family dynamics to mental and physical health, to finding purpose, we tackle the issues that truly matter to retirees and those thinking about retirement. Today we're diving deep into the evolving landscape of retirement, rethinking purpose, identity, relationship, and how we spend our time, money, and energy in this next stage of life. Our guest is someone who is passionate about challenging the outdated narratives around retirement and helping people truly thrive in their second half. Joining us today is Dan Haylett, a financial partner and the head of growth at TFP Financial Planning. In the uk. Dan specializes in financial planning, retirement planning, and life planning for individuals over 50. Beyond numbers and spreadsheets. He's deeply invested in the human side of retirement, guiding people through the emotional and behavioral aspects of this major life transition. Dan also hosts the podcasts, the Humans versus Retirement, where he explores the psychological shifts, challenges and opportunities that come with stepping into retirement. With a background in the asset management industry and a mission to help 1 million people redefine their retirement experience, Dan brings a wealth of insights, experience, and inspiration to the conversation. Get ready for a thought provoking discussion about breaking free from outdated norms and designing a life you truly love in retirement. Let's dive in. Dan. Welcome to the show.

Dan Haylett: 3:08

Yasmin, it's such a pleasure to join you and I'm thrilled to be on this side of the mic. this is wonderful for me.

Yasmin Nguyen: 3:15

Oh, well, Dan, you know, it's hard to believe that it's only been recently that we've met and I've really admired your work and your insights, and especially your sketches that you've shared online. And I feel like even though we've only known each other for a brief amount of time, we both live and serve by a similar playbook.

Dan Haylett: 3:32

Yeah, listen, that first conversation we had and the interaction we've had on LinkedIn has been brilliant. And yeah, we've definitely got a lot in common. and yeah, can't wait to have this conversation and talk about all things retirement.

Yasmin Nguyen: 3:44

Well, Dan, for those of us who haven't gotten a chance to get to know you, would you share a little bit about your story and what led you to incorporate a more holistic approach to your work and also your life?

Dan Haylett: 3:56

I could probably spend half an hour about the backstory. I won't go into that. So we, we wanna get into the juicy stuff. But, I think my kind of story that led me to here was really, I. Quite a deep personal one where, I had, some quite significant challenges, mental health challenges in my mid thirties, which caused me to question life question, what I was doing. dig down into, why am I doing what I'm doing? it was very, I wouldn't say it was money driven. I was very much shackled to a high earning, high pressured, career that had little purpose, that satisfied me in very little ways. That was actually probably doing more harm than good to my family. And all culminated in, in these kind of mental health challenges I had whi, which. made me just reassess. So I say to people now, I retired at 35. That the emotional, challenges, the things that I faced and the things I tried to do around purpose and identity and relationships and time and money. I carry through into the work that I do, and I'm sure we get onto that was something I went through quite early at 35. So I retired from corporate world at 35 really discover, or really tried to discover what I wanted to do with my life. where could I add value, where could I make an impact? What would give me a real good sense to pull back the duvet, to put a smile on my face, and to do something I truly love. And it's led me, to, to doing this really, six, seven years ago. I joined TFP, brought into the business as a director and shareholder. and really in my time at in Asset Management, I traveled the length and breadth of the uk. Speaking with and working with other financial advisors. And throughout that kind of 10, 12 year period of doing that, I, I really molded my thought. I never really thought I would become a financial planner, right? It wasn't the thing. But, when the opportunity came and I really sat down and thought about what that could deliver to me as a person, and of the experiences of the good, the bad, and the ugly of financial advisory businesses had a real clear thought process about what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it. And it really all molded into my own emotional journey with money and how I then wanted to help other people's transitions from a full-time career that maybe they weren't necessarily in love with, and into a different phase of their life, one with more joy and happiness. from the get go, Yasmin, I dug deep into kind of the emotional and behavioral aspects of money, knowing it was much more than spreadsheets and bar charts.

Yasmin Nguyen: 6:38

Yeah, Dan, that's been a really powerful personal journey that's really inspired you to channel that outwards to help others, and I'm. Curious, is there a particular philosophy that, that you follow to introduce a more well-rounded, balanced approach to both the money and the non-financial side based on just your journey, but also the wisdom that you've gained?

Dan Haylett: 7:01

Yeah, I try not to be afraid of it. I lead with it. So I think what I've, what I decided to do really early on almost be upfront and go, This is what I believe I. you may not know it yet, but I know money and finances is an emotional lightning rod for all of this stuff. You may be coming here to talk about your pension funds or your cash flow or your tax situation, but I know that's a smokescreen for who am I, who do I want to be? I'm not saying it's not important, I just know there are other important things. and I really went to lead with that. Really early on my outward language, of the, the mission around the podcast, the sketches and all of that stuff, is to say to people, this is me. you know what you're getting into. You know that you're not gonna be working with a typical financial advisor. You know that we're gonna be talking about more than just spreadsheets. In fact, that's led to wonderful people I work with, right? I don't have to sit there and necessarily convince them that this is the right way. They've already consumed a load of my stuff and they know what roughly, that they're signing up for from that perspective. I suppose one of the things for me is not shying away with who I am and what I want to deliver, being upfront with it really early on in terms of, I know that these are the challenges that you will face. Yes, money might be one of them, but let me tell you your purpose and your identity and your relationships and your time and the fact that you've gotta start spending this thing is gonna be really difficult. I could produce the best financial, most robust financial plan in the world, the most optimized asset allocation investment portfolio. And it will all be worthless if we don't do this thing over here because you're not gonna be able to, you don't know what you're gonna retire to. You dunno what you're gonna retire with and you dunno how you're gonna spend your money. so all of this is worthless. So let's make it worthwhile. Let's make your money worthwhile and let's discuss those things upfront, because they're gonna give us the foundations to creating a wonderful. Financial plan that encompasses all of the other things to do with the retirement transition.

Yasmin Nguyen: 9:03

Wow. for those who haven't gotten a chance to experience your brilliant content that's out there, what would you say are some of the common themes that you, you talk about?

Dan Haylett: 9:15

Yeah. To be Yasmin, you mentioned, I think you know, it's, it's interesting when. People like us talk to each other. That sounds really bad. People like us, like this new age, planners. But I think there's a common thread to this, right? And it's a personal thread that I found, and also been, ratified by people like you that are doing this as well. And the things are. Purpose, identity, relationships, time and spending money. we can add health into that

Yasmin Nguyen: 9:41

Okay.

Dan Haylett: 9:41

well. But I think health kind of goes in there somewhere. but they are the things that I think sit outside of a typical I. estate, cashflow, investment portfolio type plan. And yes, spending money is nothing to do with money, by the way. Like nothing. maybe your income strategy is to do with spending, but actually spending the thing that's emotional, behavioral when everything, and maybe we can dig into that. But yeah, they're the five things that I think everybody needs to focus on, and there's a pattern to those five things. And if you don't, if one of them is outer kilter or not in alignment, it's really noticeable. Really noticeable for people that I work with. When that goes out with kilter or they have, or they come to me, haven't worked on a couple of them, you can really see how that's playing on their mind and how it may not be allowing them to be free to enjoy their time.

Yasmin Nguyen: 10:37

Speaking of clients, how has the response been? for those who perhaps have been along around for a while with more of a traditional financial planning expectation, how has this been introducing it to them as well as those who may be coming in the door who've already experienced your. Your content and know what to expect. I'm just curious what the range of, response has been from your clients.

Dan Haylett: 11:01

Yeah, I suppose I've been pretty fortunate in that I haven't really had the baggage bit to deal with and I know that's really tough for a lot of people. I think one of the big. issues with many financial planners adopting this, is that, well, I've served these clients for so many years, I've now gotta go back and tell them what I've been doing is like not good enough, or I'm, I dunno what, but like I've got this other thing. And so I've been really fortunate in that I've taken on the vast majority of new clients in this business. I didn't really have that many, established clients. work with. So I've been able to go at this full on and not have to convince people that there's been one or two. and it's, there's been more than one or two, but there's been a few. and again, the ones that I've had, I tried two things, right? I tried the softly approach and it didn't work. it just, it doesn't land. When I've done it with preexisting clients, I've just gone hard in and gone and just been upfront like the, you've done it this way. we're doing it this way. because, and I lead with challenges, out of purpose and identity and relationships and time and spending money. Can you name me some challenges that you've had and when they come back with these loads of challenges, it's oh, okay. Do you get it now? your financial plan has been great and robust, but you are telling me that you're feeling a bit lost. You're telling me that you're not really comfortable spending that amount of money. This is why we're gonna revisit this to make sure that you know that we can take advantage of your numbers,

Yasmin Nguyen: 12:33

Dan, have you noticed any common challenges that keep resurfacing as you've had these conversations?

Dan Haylett: 12:40

yet spending money I, I want to work with people that have a level of wealth, right? and that's nothing, by the way, full disclosure, we charge fixed fees. our desire to deal with people with wealth has nothing to do with ripping a percentage fee from their assets. It's all to do with their situation, who I feel I can help the best. when I say wealth, they're not, this is not massive wealth, but this is enough

Yasmin Nguyen: 13:06

Yeah.

Dan Haylett: 13:07

going, I know that I've got a level of wealth that should see me okay, and I should be able to enjoy it, but there's enough challenges on the other side to go, will it last and can I really enjoy it? And all of that stuff. The, I think out of that, the biggest challenge I see with people is being able to release their shackles, being able to, get over everything that they've been taught in their life about saving money. Everything that's been hardwired into them about the security of having a pot of money behind them, and then get them to actually spend the thing down. On the things that they love. That is a real challenge. And there is, I think a, there is a chronic underspending problem in retirement because there's so many unknowns that cause fear that then cause doubt, that then cause other questions and people just don't spend enough money. And they spend it. They don't spend it at the detriment of their joy and happiness. They've got so many things that they'd love to do, and these aren't massive things, Yasmin, either, right? These are not like cruises around the world. This is, can I give my grandchildren or children X, Y, Z to help them? And you're not talking hundreds of thousands. You're talking. 10 grand, 20 grand. can I, can we buy this new car? Can we, these are, they're not massive things, but they just feel shackled to actually spend it so alien to people, to decumulate to spend capital when it's not coming back in and having that safety net. So the vast majority of people I work with, I think that's their. That's their biggest challenge, But it's only the biggest challenge by a fraction because I think the others are really difficult too. But that would be the one for me.

Yasmin Nguyen: 14:55

There's definitely a lot of challenges for that particular challenge. Dan, is there a particular approach that you take to help someone make that shift? and is there a story of someone that's had a breakthrough from you helping them, be able to really step into some joyful spending?

Dan Haylett: 15:12

Yeah, there's several things. I, it kind, it led me to write a white paper. So I've got the skill of spending money, white paper. which I'm sure we can add as a download to the

Yasmin Nguyen: 15:22

Yeah.

Dan Haylett: 15:23

if anyone's interested, but, Yeah, I think, as I said, I think spending money's a skill, right? So we need to learn the skill and there are a couple of things that we can absolutely do to help ourselves learn this skill. one of those is to understand some truths, so cut through the noise and understand some truths. And the great thing now is this modern retirement that everyone's going into has probably got 20 to 30 years worth of data to support spending patterns. The truth is that people aren't spending. So if we show them this truth, right? You, yeah, it's tough, but this is the outcomes of what's going on. And saying that, by the way, on average people only spend about 30% of their starting net wealth. They're leaving money on the table. 14% of people on average are drawing down capital. Everyone else is either drawing down the return of the investment or less. a and then about reframing the language, asmi. So what I try and say with people is, you are not leaving money on the table. You are leaving memories and experiences on the table. You are actually upping the. potential of regret in your life. That's what you are. You're upping the potential of regret and then you're leaving memories and experiences on the table. Reframing these ways, in a much more mo reframing these subjects in a mo much more emotive way has been the biggest game changer for me. When I talk about memories and experiences, I also talk about, we're not turning your investments into income, we're turning your money into memories. So forget this whole income planning. I talk about retirement memory planning. So what memories do you wanna create with your money? Not, how much income can I, it's, that's an who knows, right? who knows, but. What memories do you wanna make? Who do you wanna make them with and how can we fund them? think about the wonderful concept of memory dividends that I talk to a lot of people about, made famous by a number of people. But Bill Perkins Die with Zero book talks about this a lot, this kind of concept that spending your money or memories gives you dividends for life, right? You recall. What you've done with friends and family, and it brings you joy and happiness in later life. So I think it's really important to reframe how we start thinking about this, and thinking about how we spend our money and get it out of money language, out of financial language, and into. Into real life, and that's been pretty transformational for people. When we start talking, about that, give our money meaning, give it a name, it buckets. Say, grandchildren's holiday, safari holiday, or Tom's college fund or, 60th birthday cruise, right? Money needs meaning if it's numbers. the one thing I did learn really, which was transformational, was where numbers and stories sit in our brain. numbers sit on the wrong side of our brain. They sit on the side of our brain that we don't quite believe. We challenge and we're very skeptical of, and we're wary of. So if we're constantly at that side of our brain with our retirement plans, I don't think we're ever gonna fully let go. We need to develop stories, we need to develop ways to make, give our money, meaning, and yeah, it's had a massive impact. And actually, do you know what, it's really had an impact. And there's a particular example and it's money and goods, which I think is really interesting in a way that, They have absolutely brought forward their spending. and they read an article I wrote. good couple years ago, which was entitled, giving Your Money Away with a Warm Heart, not a cold hand. And there were various different versions of that particular thing, but this kind of thing around leaving your money to the end to give to your kids. again, I provide the research and evidence, right? The average age of someone inherit in money's 57 or something stupid like that. 56. they're probably set, what do they want it at that point for? They really took on board this kind of money, meaning, memories, joy of giving, joy of spending. they went and brought a dog. supported their family with house purchases and it all ended up with them actually giving away jewelry. and she, the wife, the wife actually had this piece of really, sentimental jewelry that was her mom's. And she was gonna, basically, it was in her will to leave it to her daughter, and they just got in such a mindset of seeing joy and happiness in giving and using and doing all this stuff that she said. I actually give it to my daughter now. She said, I won't wear it. My daughter loves it. She'll wear it. And they started crying and breaking down in the office about how just unlocking the shackles of. This kind of like giving mentality this kind of joyful mentality allowed them to see this stuff while they were doing it. So my thing here is not always about the money, right? This is unlocking what's really important to people and understanding they can do these things now. They don't have to wait until some date that they're never gonna see or never see the impact of what they're doing.

Yasmin Nguyen: 20:27

Wow. I love that. you're totally speaking my language. You said the word joy, like Many times. And each time I'm like, yep, I get it. But, and it's, I think it's brilliant that you are reframing, spending and money as the vehicle for meaning for memories. And that in many ways that, that money is like an agent of joy, right? Where you are helping them discover all these possibilities. And I imagine that's why. Having, these deeper conversations with clients reveal what some of their underlying desires, regrets, and other areas in which you can make that connection or that dot, connect the dots to help support them through the financial piece I.

Dan Haylett: 21:12

Yeah, a absolutely. And it's really interesting, right? I think it's one of those things where. And this is just, this is a bit gut feel, but it's baked in a little bit of real life that I've had, but I think. clients won't necessarily thank us the hard work and deep work that we have to do they realize the impact and that impact might be a few years away. So I've almost had conversations along the lines of, I get it now, Dan, like that kind of two years down the line. It's oh, I get why we talked about that, or I understand why we, so I think, thing I will say is that the thing I've learned is I don't expect transformation after one conversation. I don't expect them to turn around and go, oh, I get it now. I'm a new person. I've got new purpose. It takes a while. It's a journey for everybody. But what I do know and what I do guarantee, for me anyway, personally, is one day this will click, there'll be a thing where they'll be like, ah, get it. I understand it. and it's been built up. I get why we've been having these conversations. It's built up to this day, and now I feel better to go and do the thing. and that's connecting the dots on the journey. And I think that's why as financial planning professionals, as. Coaching professionals, as lifestyle planning professionals. this is about embracing ourselves as guides, not mechanics, right? we have to be guides on a journey and we have to walk life with them on this journey and support them on it because it's full of unknowns, right? We have to be, we have to embrace uncertainty we need our clients to embrace that, as well. and I think. That's just a key element for me is to go, look, this is an ongoing process full of unknowns and uncertainty, but I'm gonna be here for you and we're gonna make it as joyful and as impactful, as po as possible. along the way

Yasmin Nguyen: 23:06

Dan, how did you develop the confidence, the experience, the insights to step into this role of a guide for your clients?

Dan Haylett: 23:16

Yeah, it's a great question. I think. I think I've always, from a kid, Yasmin, I've had inbuilt confidence that probably goes way beyond my knowledge and experience. So I think, I think I'm all right now, but I've always been pretty confident and I've always had a belief and I think through, I had a really bad period of my career, that lasted for three or four years, but before that, I've al I've always believed in my voice. I've always believed in, my opinion. I've always believed in my ability to communicate and talk to people. And that's how I got to where I got to. And and I was pretty successful in sport when I was a, when I was a kid. And, and I got there because of my communication skills and my ability to influence, people along the way. and so I think. it, the confidence comes from a bit like, the iceberg analogy, right? people don't see the work you put in underneath this, right? They see the podcast conversation for an hour. They see the sketch, they see the content, but that's been developed over the last seven years. I have done, I have read more books in the last six years than I've read in my 45 years of life, right? I've read. Book after book. I've listened to podcast. After podcast. I've had conversation after conversation late at night with people, staying up to speak to people in America, in Australia, in South Africa, and think to just. Kind of get this understanding, constant reevaluation of conversations I have with people. and we talked about AI earlier, before we hit record. But the ability to record these conversations and analyze this stuff now to see, what does that mean and where did I quite go wrong? And, that learning growth mentality, I've always had that, and I think it's just served me really well. But yeah, I think, people don't necessarily understand the kind of the work that goes beneath. To have that confidence that you need to produce this stuff. but it's, I think it's when you walk life with clients, Yasmin, you see it, right? if I see more than one person go through something, I think that's a pattern. So I might as well talk about it, right? If more than one person's done it, I think we should, get that conversation out there and do it with confidence. Otherwise, people won't believe you.

Yasmin Nguyen: 25:27

Yeah, you've certainly made a significant investment in yourself and your personal growth and then that provides the opportunity for you to be able to really make a contribution. I. To, your clients, but also the general, population as well that's learning about this. and you mentioned sketches. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper into this, brilliant approach that you've used to help communicate some common concepts that, that people are navigating. Can you share a little bit more about the ideas behind your sketches and perhaps with, share with us maybe a couple of sketches that, you found extremely useful in communicating with. Clients and people.

Dan Haylett: 26:05

Yeah, this get, it happened by accident in, in that, in, in my first, not my first meeting, but in my first kind of, number of meetings that I had, thinking about explaining these concepts to, to people that actually are bright. And clever, but I thought were bright and cleverer than what they were. So you're explaining these concepts of people that and what, just very quickly on this one, I work with a lot of people in asset management. My background was in asset management and a lot of my friends and have become clients and a lot of people that I've never known have become clients. These are people that work with money. work yet. They didn't seem to get it. Like when it comes to their own stuff like it, it's a bit like a, I call it like a builder's house, right? Quite often when you go around a builder's house, it's not complete. It's not finished.'cause they're working on everybody else's houses. And it's the same with people with their personal finance. I. I'm explaining these, this stuff to people. I'm explaining about longevity, I'm explaining about health span, I'm explaining about, leaving memories on the table and I'm explaining about how, retirement is more of a human problem than it is a, a math problem and all of this stuff. And they're nodding things. And I'm like, look, it's like this. And you get the flip chart up and you just draw something and then they go, oh yeah, no, I get that. And I'm like, oh. So you didn't get the words, but you get the picture. and and then someone said to me, have you come across Carl Richards? I was like, no. Who's Carl Richards? I'd literally just started, so I then Read Carl's stuff, looked at his sketches and thought, actually, this is a really interesting way to communicate. Googled other people. So there's lots of people that sketch in different industries and professions, and as a way to communicate, reached out to Carl, become, really good friends with him and have talked to him a lot and then just developed this. I was like, actually, if there's a concept that I think needs to be explained more than once, I'm gonna sketch about it. If I think I can make an impact, IE my sketches, I want to hit, hit them between the eyes and go, oh, really? so yeah, that's where it's come from. And now whenever my first thought about content, whenever I get an idea or a client says something, my first thought is, can I sketch that? can I sketch it to give them. Another way of consuming it. And can I sketch it so I can get it out into the world? That might cause some thoughts around how this topic is.

Yasmin Nguyen: 28:27

if you could, introduce one of them that maybe you can describe, So maybe an example then.

Dan Haylett: 28:33

Okay. I think what the, there's, there's two that I'm gonna quickly touch on. One is healthspan versus lifespan. this drawing basically has a blue line that says this is your lifespan, and it then has a, like a red line that's going from left back down to right and said, actually, look, you are, you are gonna be healthy less than you're gonna be alive. this concept of spending your money whilst time and health is on your side and not planning for this kind of constant spend throughout a hundred year life going, you know the stats say in the UK that healthy life expectancy is 62 years old, right? So you might spend 10, 15 years of your life in. In bad health. In health, not necessarily, but in health, that is gonna prevent you from doing things. so we should take advantage of the fact that, and we should know that your health span is gonna fall. and then the main one for me, actually, one of the first ones that I drew was I. The go, no, go slow. Go years or go, no go. Go slow. No go. Years. And I've changed that to like exploring nesting and reflecting, but it's these blocks of spending, so it's kinda actually you've got a 10 year window of opportunity. Block one and it should be higher. And that's your go-go exploring years. You then drop down to your nesting slow, slowing down years, and you drop down again into your reflecting. later life, no-go years. And that's had a massive Im, I know that has been printed out and stuck on people's fridges, et cetera. It's had a big impact because it really helps people start to frame in their head actually that. Retirement is one, isn't one great big timeframe. It does go in different ways. Time is different as we progress through, and we need to make sure we take advantage of those first blocks there, and it holds people accountable to going, I do it now? Should I do it now? Should I do it now? so I, off the back of that, I created another sketch, this kind of what are you waiting for? So it's this kind of net worth line that goes, keeps going up and up, followed by a what are you waiting for in a coffin at the end, right? It's what were you waiting for? tomorrow a week. at some point it's gonna end. and It's just getting people to wake up and do this. So yeah, that's, it's been a big thing for me and I'm thrilled that some other advisors are reaching out and using these sketches and et cetera.'cause I think it's, it's a great way to get some concept in front of people and just start a different way of talking about this.

Yasmin Nguyen: 31:00

What a powerful tool to communicate some of these topics and, I'll make sure that we. We post some links in the show notes so that people can get a chance to actually see those sketches, that you've referenced and the other sketches that you've put together. Dan I'm curious, as you've had these deeper conversations with clients about their lives, about joy, about memories and re you know, things that can really bring fulfillment, how has that impacted your business?

Dan Haylett: 31:28

Yeah, I like tremendously. I think, pe people that work here, Are, I think more engaged in the process that you know that this is not just a business that processes numbers. This is a business that deals with humans That kind of transcends through everybody in the business, whether you are doing adminis tasks or you're doing power planning work, or you're crunching some numbers or you're sitting in front of clients. dealing with humans and we should always have a human first approach to all of that work that we're doing. and so it's definitely made people. about this very differently. So it's had a tremendous impact on the business. it's also had a tremendous impact on the type of clients that we work with. it's, I can say hand on heart that the Im, the impact that we have with our clients. compared to what it was when I first joined, we were having an impact then is so much more meaningful, so much more gratifying, and so much more impactful that it just energizes everybody to go again and go again. yeah, it's had a, it is had a massive impact on the business. and constantly want to grow this right. that what we're doing now and how we're doing it. In its infancy, right? we're constantly looking and thinking, so the business maintains its growth mindset based on the challenges that we're trying to face. It's not just a, doing advice and standing still and stagnating, which is quite boring. It's got the energy in it to be able to think about how we develop this going forward.

Yasmin Nguyen: 33:13

I imagine with the impact that you're making and the fulfillment you're getting from the advisor side, but also on the. Client side, you're deepening the level of trust. And I think that might even, lead into some potential referrals or even, retaining clients too.

Dan Haylett: 33:30

Yeah, look, I, one thing that's really nice, actually on that, that the referral, is coming. Really quickly. So I think typically, and so we never ask and we never actually base our numbers on referrals, right? any new client targets that we wanna make in the business has a zero referral thing, right? It like. should never ask or expect any of our clients to do our work for us. That's a big thing for me. I base all of the work I do on getting new clients coming to us because they've searched us out or seen us, but we do get a really decent amount of referrals because we just concentrate on the client with no agenda. Let's just concentrate on them. This is not a by the way, we need to wow our clients, so they give us two of their mates. That's. You're never gonna get it right if you do it that way. but one thing I have absolutely noticed over the last three or four years is that I'm getting a lot more referrals after one conversation. Like the, you're not having to do the whole journey, deliver advice, and then go, oh, this has been great. You are having one conversation. Where you are talking about maybe two, you're talking about them. I get people to stand up and write stuff on a flip chart. I get people to, really start com opening up and thinking about it. I get couples to talk pretty early on, really impactful, upfront conversations, and I get referral they're like, oh, like I'm, friend needs to come see you. Like they need this, So that's been massively impactful. it's not, it's very much that first experience they get and again, that all the science around human beings is baked into that, right? The first experience and the last experience is the things that we remember. The things in the middle are a little bit, don't really know what's going on, because I'm trying to deliver huge amounts of value upfront and focus on them, seems like they're going, this is a, this is unbelievable transformation. transformative after one conversation, and then referrals are coming quicker.

Yasmin Nguyen: 35:25

Dan, with all this potential upside, I'm curious, where do you see the state of the industry as it relates to the adoption of more of the holistic non-financial planning aspects?

Dan Haylett: 35:39

Yeah, I, look, I think it is, I think it's binary in the, in the uk There is a, an aging. Advisor workforce. I think the average age of an advisor is in its sixties. in their sixties, I should say. and got, they've built really cushy businesses. They've built businesses that, that they don't wanna disrupt. they know it's not being done right. They know that, this kind of like hardly any service for a big whacking, great percentage fee is amazing for them. Not great for the client, but they don't wanna rock the boat'cause they're five years away from exiting the whole thing. So I think there's, and whilst that bias towards that group of people exists, I think it's gonna be a slow burn. But on the other end of the scale, and this isn't necessarily an age thing, you've just got new people entering the profession that are grabbing this earlier on, which I love to see. they understand that this is the way and the only way to deliver it. this isn't a balanced approach between financial advice, life planning, and coaching. This is an integrated, blended approach that you need to deliver. This all. Now, you might wanna employ or outsource specific retirement coaching elements or that, but you need the whole thing under your roof. You need the whole capability. and that's where I see the most interesting transition happening. People are doing this from the word go and developing amazing, wonderful businesses, but whilst the bulk of clients and stuff sits up here. They're just not gonna change. And gut instinct and a little bit of my fear says clients might need to change hands one or two times to get the experience they deserve. There's huge amounts of consolidation going on by these big consolidators that are not really delivering this either. They're paying lip service'cause it sounds like marketing. and they're getting swallowed up. I think it might be where clients then go, actually. This thing over here. So that's why I'm so passionate about getting the message out there. I, I don't, I can't work with everybody in a one-to-one basis. If I can impact hundreds, thousands of people where they actually sit up, take note and go, I need to speak to someone like Dan that lives near me or speak that's brilliant. them to get out of where they are and into a place that's delivering this stuff. So adoption up here, over here, but limited amount of people adopting it, I think will only grow, might grow at a slower pace than we all want until the dinosaurs exit.

Yasmin Nguyen: 38:15

Yeah. What do you see as, the barriers or what gets in the way of advisors really embracing this approach and what's missing in order for them to really incorporate this?

Dan Haylett: 38:28

Yeah, again, I think, I've got lots of friends. the pond. and I think the CFP curriculum is embracing retirement or retire like coaching and behavioral finance. it a lot more, I think there's whole dedicated syllabuses and chapters to this. So I welcome this right in here in the uk. Like it's still a very like textbook driven, numbers led transactional advice led qualification, right? So in order to become a financial advisor. over here there are three routes, excuse me, that you go down none of those routes really integrate any type of coaching, communication behavioral advice. and you have to kinda go search that out yourself. So you really need to wanna do it. to go search it out. I think the true transition comes and transformation comes when it's forced upon people to have this as part of their skillset.

Yasmin Nguyen: 39:24

Yeah. I see. Hey, I remember in our previous conversation you said something that really, caught my attention and you, I believe you said something that the minute that a financial plan is created that it's wrong or something like that. can you like elaborate on that comment?

Dan Haylett: 39:41

think it comes back to this, this embrace uncertainty thing that I said, a financial plan is trying to predict the future. I. I dunno about you, but I'm actually pretty rubbish at that. I've never been able to get it right. and I think that's one of the big things I see is where I start working with clients who've worked with a financial advisor or planner before and they've developed a plan and the language they come and use with us is language of certainty, right? It's kinda this investment return is built in. And not gonna get that. Oh, aren't I right? No. the, so a financial plan is a snapshot in time that is wrong. The moment the client leaves the office, because it is full of future assumptions that are so challenging to get anywhere near right. Inflation, investment returns, longevity, health span, keep naming it, spending. Children, grandchildren, house repairs, car breaking down. just keep, just keep going. There's, so it's a, it's a big picture tool that allows us to create a sense of direction. But it is not certainty. the more truthful we are with the people we sit in front of, the better equipped they will be to deal with uncertainty when it comes their way.'cause there is one guarantee and the guarantee that is, that something will hit you in the face that you don't know has been coming. and so we need to make sure that they're prepared for those moments. and. That's I say it. It's yeah. We could have the best financial plan. We could talk about your, what you want to do. I'll give you a quick example. wonderful couple. They had a really great retirement plan in terms of what they were gonna do with their time. I. were, key members of an amateur soccer club over here, a good amateur, like a semi-professional type soccer club. And they were on the board and they were high up, and they were, that was their, they wanted to get more involved with local soccer and give back to the community. Very quickly that turned round because the whole football club got sold and got and they were like, oh my God. what's happened now? our, all of our time was gonna be based on giving back and running kids soccer and doing all of this stuff, and they both, the couple loved it. They both loved it. They had to like, they were like, what's going on here now? They have since pivoted. They breed Irish Wolf Hounds. Now they had three Irish Wolf Hounds. They, so like everything changed within, and that happened six weeks after he retired. I. So the whole thing about their time, it just like this financial plan about how what they were spending their money on had to basically be completely torn up and started again within six weeks of it being created. there is no certainty.

Yasmin Nguyen: 42:36

yeah. It's, the plan is a snapshot as to what is, and it's a projection of what could be. But the reality is that life and, changes and we experience so many different things, and as a guide with your clients, that's why it's important to be able to understand what else is going on in their lives in order to make some of those adjustments for them.

Dan Haylett: 42:56

Yeah, and that's why I love talking about purpose, identity, relationships and that stuff because although they might change, if we're gonna give ourselves like statements of guide guidance, like this kind of what is my purpose? Who am I? These things have more longevity to them than. Financial projections or numbers. And if you've got those guiding statements and those guiding principles, then you can navigate the numbers to suit in with who you are, what you want to do, who's in your social circles, how you wanna spend your time, and who you wanna spend it with. They can be pretty consistent. They can give you the foundations to a really meaningful retirement. You might just have to adapt the way you fund it and the way you experience it, depending on what goes on.

Yasmin Nguyen: 43:41

Yeah. Dan, for an advisor who is intrigued by this conversation, who's looking to incorporate more, life planning, non-financial aspects of this conversation with their clients, what advice would you give them? I.

Dan Haylett: 43:55

be curious. Be open. Have a growth mindset. Google, speak to people like you. Bob Lara's, retirement Coaches Association, George Kinder's. wonderful work on his, life planning, registered life planner designation, search people out, talk to them, read about this stuff. You've wrote a wonderful book. There's many books you know about this and be open and curious to learn and don't be afraid because what I will say is. I can't guarantee much, I do try and guarantee is that this is what clients need. This is what the public need, and they are absolutely coming round to the fact that they need this. there are people sitting in front of me because I do what I do, and because I'm not just a number crunching financial advisor. So don't be afraid. Put yourself out there. Be bold and be brave.

Yasmin Nguyen: 44:51

So it's great tips. Dan, what's next for you in this space? Any upcoming projects, innovations, things that you're excited about?

Dan Haylett: 44:59

too many. The brain swells my, my, my notes section on my iPhone. I think if someone saw that, Yasmin, I'll be sectioned. I mean it, look,

Yasmin Nguyen: 45:07

I.

Dan Haylett: 45:07

wild and chaotic. yeah, so I'm trying to actually, I. I feel like I'm, I embrace all the work. I'm embracing all the work that I've done. So hone in on the sketches, hone in on the podcast, and think about now I. Instead of doing more, think about taking what I've got and how can I get that in more hands. That's now my, I think there's enough content to last my lifetime right now. I've got ideas about more, but I think what I'm gonna do is find ways to get it out there. hence one of the things I've done was the sketch store, and I've got a physical hard copy sketchbook that, that I've been hum, humbled enough that people have started to buy and use in their client meetings. I'm thinking about ways to try and help people develop sketching as a communication tool. how can we do that? and then really getting the podcast out into, in, into more ears thinking about putting this all together in a way to present this, all these frameworks and sketches and ideas that I've had, how can I condense that down in, into something meaningful to deliver to both the public and advisors. That has the biggest impact and how can they take that forward? you've been very gracious to share a couple of wonderful ideas with me that you've had. So sometimes it's nice to hear other people's opinion. I'm so in this, I forget what that might be sometimes. yeah, I think, I think a series around the sketches, and how to use them to communicate, particular concepts with clients is something that I'm definitely thinking about over the next few months.

Yasmin Nguyen: 46:46

that's so exciting. You've got so many innovative and creative and impactful, things that's happening here. You mentioned podcasts. Can you share with us a little bit about your humans versus retirement podcasts and what's the focus on that particular program? I.

Dan Haylett: 47:00

Yeah. the, what started off just over two years ago as something, as a passion project I had, I called in the favor of six. I. Reasonably close friends who were also pretty decent names, but I thought I'd make it to six and that would, I'd have six wonderful conversations. I'd have some content to deliver some client to, to clients. I'd learn a bit and then fast forward two years, I'm now episode 78 and a hundred thousand downloads. it's just gathered itself some pace in it. And really what I wanted to do was having an environment to speak to amazing people, doing amazing work through different, avenues of kind of profession and get these conversations out there because I don't think enough conversations were being had, And in a way that can be consumed. I'd done some research and it was like, there's more people listening to podcasts and not as many people reading blogs and people are more open to listening to stuff on train journeys and car journeys. I'm a feet first kind of guy and I thought, you know what, let's just hit record and see where it goes. And Yeah, it is tackling all those issues. It's tackling, I've had a sleep expert on, I've had people that specialize in fitness for over fifties. I've had behavioral finance people, economists, coaches. I've had real clients on there. I've had three amazing episodes with clients that have been, just sharing their story, which I, that's probably, I've had the biggest, feedback from, and, yeah. it's just an avenue, selfishly, it's an avenue for me to learn from amazing people. And then it just so happens that it's in the big, wide world and people are listening to it and it's having an impact on them. yeah, it's been a wonderful couple of years.

Yasmin Nguyen: 48:46

Wow. So in addition to your podcast, where can our listeners connect with you and also learn more about your work?

Dan Haylett: 48:54

Yeah, so LinkedIn is the main place I come off, Twitter, stroke X at some point this year because it was like, mentally doing me in. So I was like, I'm not on there anymore. so LinkedIn is the main place, humans versus retirement website, humans vs retirement.com. that's where. You can have a look at, everything, my newsletter. So I do a weekly newsletter, which I'm delighted to say I'm now on edition 50, so I've almost been doing it for a year. I've had a few weeks off, but, every now and again. where I try and share some pretty, I try and share an exclusive thought. So just, keep something back for people that are really appreciating, the work. and then, yeah, the podcast is available on all players and I'm on YouTube doing some video as well. yeah, search, search it all out, connect up, reach out. I'm so open to having one-to-one conversations with anybody that feels they'd like deeper conversation about how I do it, what I do, and if they feel like they can learn anything from me, I'd be, hugely open to speaking to anybody and helping them out on their journey.

Yasmin Nguyen: 49:58

that's how we connected was you shared this brilliant, sketch and I commented, and next thing you know, we were on, a call together. I'll be sure to make sure, that we, list all those different ways to connect with you in the show notes as well, so that. That, people can, reach out to you. Dan, any final thoughts after this? Just really thought provoking conversation.

Dan Haylett: 50:19

yeah. Look again, For any members of the public that, are listening, I would have a as much of a For your purpose and your identity and your relationships and your time as much as you have a plan for your, investments. and don't underestimate the work that you have to do. you are. You are having to unwind potentially 20, 30 years of experiences and behaviors to do something new. This is a big transition and people write about it and talk about it for a reason.'cause it's a hugely a motive transition. so be prepared to put some work in and you will be handsomely rewarded for that work that you do put in. and similarly for any advisors listening, the real impact lies in this work. I've done both. The real impact lies in this work. Be brave, be bold, be curious. it. Your clients will thank you for it. and there is so many people that are doing this work that really want to help other people learn and grow from this'cause we understand how much, impact that it has. yeah, don't be afraid of it and embrace it.

Yasmin Nguyen: 51:32

Dan, I thank you for it. I thank you for all the wisdom, all the, valuable insights, the care, everything that you're doing. you're really paving a path for many others and modeling this for I think what could be extraordinarily meaningful way to make a difference in people's lives. So thank you so much for sharing that and also being here with, me today.

Dan Haylett: 51:52

It is been a pleasure, Yasmin, I'm right back at you as well, yeah, can't wait to carry on our conversations and thank you for having me on.

Yasmin Nguyen: 51:58

Thank you for taking the time to join us today. If you enjoyed this episode or found it valuable, please subscribe, follow and leave a comment or view on your favorite platform. If you have friends, clients, or loved ones who are retired or thinking about retirement, we invite you to share this show with them. Check out this show notes with links to resources mentioned in this episode@realretirementshow.com. Remember, retirement is a joyful journey we get to experience together. Join us next week for another real retirement conversation.