Shelley McIntyre: 0:00

they grew up with that model, watching their parents get older, watching their. Grandparents have a very clear like now we stop moment and I think there was an assumption as Gen Xers came up that, that would be something that would happen to them as well. And then I think they started grappling with the. I don't want to go on cruises, but I don't want to golf. So what does that mean for retirement for us? If we don't want to do the things that our parents did. so then they had to go into this innovation moment of, okay, if we're throwing out that script of retirement means moving to the villages in Florida and just having dinner parties and golfing, if we can throw that out. Then what opens up for us because there's no precedent, we're inventing this, and we have to keep being vibrant and healthy for this extended lifespan that we have. So what do we get to do? It's not like a, what do we have to do now? What do we get to do? And I think that's a big shift and a change of conception for Gen Xers.

Yasmin Nguyen: 1:21

Welcome back to the real retirement show. My name is Yasmin here with my cohost Kathleen, whether you're retired or thinking about retirement, we delve into the multifaceted world of retirement beyond the finances. This isn't your typical retirement discussion. It's a vibrant journey into what retirement truly means in today's world. We bring you real stories from real retirees and experts discussing real challenges, surprises, joys, heartaches, and the myriad of emotions that come with retirement. From addressing family dynamics to mental and physical health to finding purpose, we tackle the issues that truly matter to retirees and those thinking about retirement. Our special guest today is Shelly McIntyre. Shelly coaches post corporate Gen Xers who want to design intentional and vibrant third acts. After a long career in technology and corporate strategy, Shelly pivoted to coaching inspired by seeing smart people get in their own way. Shelly believes it's never too late to reinvent yourself And reclaim your identity from corporate narratives. Through her coaching, she offers potent insights into change, grief, identity, equipping clients to navigate their life transitions with self compassion. Shelly taps into her love of the arts and making stuff to create unique, transformative experiences. Coaching experiences shelly. We are so excited to have you here. Thank you so much. for being with us

Shelley McIntyre: 2:53

Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yasmin Nguyen: 2:56

shelly, i've been super excited about our conversation today mainly because i'm a gen xer myself and when I was looking at the statistics I didn't realize that there are over 65 million gen xers in the u. s. And then another 7 million in canada, and so this is Becoming an important topic that we're starting to hear a lot about these days. And so I'm curious, Shelly, how did you get inspired by working and focusing on this particular generation?

Shelley McIntyre: 3:25

Well, first, just my own lived experience and seeing a lot of, resources and media around Aging baby boomers. And yep, it's a really huge generation. And yes, all of those issues are relevant. And then people would like skip over Gen X and then talk about the millennials. And I was like, Hey, you know, uh, 65 million of us. It can't possibly be a forgotten generation. And where are the resources for aging Gen Xers? And where are the books and where are the courses? And I just didn't see them. And it got me more interested in seeing what my cohort was up to and trying to figure it out. Because. What we're heading into is so vastly different from what our parents experienced and what the boomers are experiencing, too.

Kathleen Mundy: 4:25

this is going to be really interesting for me because I have a Gen Xer as one of my kids and sometimes it's difficult to understand how certain conversations find kind of common ground because there's a different, absolutely a different outlook. So I'm excited about this as well. Yes. Not just for a personal approach, but certainly there's, I quite frankly didn't know there was so many. I'm shocked.

Yasmin Nguyen: 4:55

and I've noticed at least from my peers as well too, there, there's a certain unique experience that us Gen Xers are having as it re, as it relates to this concept of retirement and. That and what's coming up. And I'm curious, Shelley, what are some of the things that you've noticed that Gen Xers are uniquely experiencing that may be different from some of the boomers, or maybe the millennials that are a little bit further away from retirement

Shelley McIntyre: 5:22

Well, first their financial reality is different. a lot of Gen Xers are looking at their own finances and thinking I can't just stop like my parents did. So they need to get creative to have some kind of income stream as they head into their later years. So financial reality is one big difference from the boomers. they might share that reality with millennials who right now can hardly buy a house. so that is changing very rapidly. And another is that they still feel so young and vibrant. And not, I'm not saying that the boomers don't feel young and vibrant because I think many of them do. But, I don't even know if I feel like a full fledged adult yet, and I'm about to be 55. So, the idea of stopping seems ridiculous to a lot of people in this generation. They still have a ton of energy, they have creative spirit, they feel connected to pop culture and everything that's going on. And so heading into, a life of leisure. Seems off brand for the Gen Xers.

Kathleen Mundy: 6:35

that's an important point, but many of these Gen Xers were also raised with the idea of career loyalty. And as they experienced multiple economic downturns, job insecurity, shifting retirement landscapes, how has that shaped their view outside of the financial aspect?

Shelley McIntyre: 6:52

Oh yeah, so I think a lot of the Gen Xers have the experience, the lived experience of learning that loyalty in the corporate world flows only one way. And that's from employee to employer. And the party that benefits in that scheme is the employer. They go through these layoffs. And they have these jolts of realizing, Oh, all of my loyalty didn't pay off. It wasn't actually valued in the end because these are economic reasons that companies are doing shufflings and restructurings. So if my loyalty doesn't count for anything, who else could I be loyal to? Like if I have this. The spirit of loyalty in my heart. Could I turn that around and be loyal to who I am at my core as I make my decisions for the future?

Kathleen Mundy: 7:54

Wow. I understand my daughter more now.

Shelley McIntyre: 7:59

Say more about that.

Kathleen Mundy: 8:00

I've been asking her about retirement and she quite frankly is your age. And she, what I hear is, Oh no, the company needs me. And I'm thinking, my gosh, I don't know that the company is needing you to the extent that they couldn't live or manage without you. And she's worked so hard. her entire life and she's youthful as you are. And she, yeah, that pop culture really resonated when you mentioned that, because that is who she is. And now they're looking at buying a home in Florence, Italy. And she's just, she's got so much enthusiasm, but energy as well. And yet I worry. there's you don't have to be old to help to have health issues, and she has a little bit of that, but now that you've said that, you know, it makes me ponder what our next conversation might be. So I, that's really interesting. That's very helpful. I appreciate that.

Shelley McIntyre: 9:00

Yeah.

Yasmin Nguyen: 9:01

along the same vein, Shelley, how do you help guide? clients that have that loyalty mindset and how do you help them, having those conversations

Shelley McIntyre: 9:10

I think the first thing is to acknowledge that when we step away from something with this strange sensation that our loyalty wasn't valued, we've been discarded. When we're talking to people who have been through a big transition, let's say they've gotten laid off or they've left a job that they were very. Loyal to for a long time, they go through a grieving process and acknowledging that it is actually grief that they're experiencing is a really important first step because they've experienced a loss of autonomy of feeling really good at something and a lot of relationships and that's like a triple whammy loss. Those are the three. Core pillars of what we need to feel content as human beings. So we really go back to foundation, like the foundation level when I work with clients of what did you lose? What are you going to miss? What are you not going to miss? And who are you now? Who are you now outside of the context of that corporate world? Because we all like, I used to call it work drag. we have this persona. That we adopt and maybe our eyebrows are a little higher and maybe we speak in a lilt at work that we don't use with our friends outside of work. So can we start dropping the mask even though that mask was very protective, can we start disintegrating it a little to get back to who we are at our core before we try to embark in something new? Because if we bring the mask with us to our next activity, we won't have fully processed what's happened. We won't have fully gone through the grieving process that we need to. and we'll bring some of that baggage from the old world into the new world. And that's not helpful, because your pain waits for you. It'll come up at some point. So you might as well start dealing with it as soon as possible.

Kathleen Mundy: 11:25

when you're talking about how they see themselves, what kind of limiting beliefs do you see that they have most often?

Shelley McIntyre: 11:33

Well, one of them. and this really goes for people who are leaving corporate is that their value as a person is connected to a title or status. Or a company. And if they are, if they don't have that VP title anymore, or they're not affiliated with some fancy consulting firm, then they're just taking up space. So I see that as a real limiting belief that they need to figure out their value outside of. Their corporate identities, which is all made up anyway, right? All the titles are made up all the status, all the hierarchy. It's all made up. So when they can figure out that it was all made up and that just by. Being alive on this beautiful earth, they are valuable human beings and can do a million things. Then the world opens up to them. So that's one limiting belief. another is I'm too old to start over and age ain't nothing but a number. And What is 55 to me now looked really different than 55 for my mom. we look at like statistics of who's starting up the most successful businesses and it's people in their forties and fifties. Those are the ones that are more likely to succeed because people are coming in with experience and wisdom.

Yasmin Nguyen: 13:17

Shelley, you mentioned a little bit earlier about the losses that people experience. And I believe in our Previous conversations, you mentioned you had a background in grief. Is that correct?

Shelley McIntyre: 13:27

Yeah, after I left consulting, I was really looking for where meaningful, important conversations were happening. Because I felt like in consulting, we were skipping over the important stuff a lot of times. And when I went out and started doing some research about these important conversations, I, Very quickly found the death care community and people who are working in death care innovation and funeral directors and grief coaches and I was like, oh, hang on a second. I think there's a connection here So I decided to leave consulting and the first thing I did was get training as a grief coach to really fully understand how grief Beyond death works and how You know, the process that grievers go through as they grapple with losing something important to them, whether that was a person a relationship with somebody who's still living, it's all the same. And I think we discount. this aspect of grief when we're going through transformations or transitions, grief is part of every single one. Even a marriage, like even getting married, even good stuff. You're losing something. you're, losing a piece of autonomy. You're losing your old routines. You're losing the house that bugged you, but you were still so familiar with it. There's something that's changing that we need to look at really clearly and say, I miss you, I love you, I forgive you, I want to apologize for something, like there's a little process that we can all go through in order to be ready for what's next.

Yasmin Nguyen: 15:22

Wow, that's really profound, Shelly. you've really helped expand the impact of grief because so often we think of grief as losing someone. And especially, folks in the boomer generation, really it's, so many of us are losing close friends and relatives as well. But what you've expanded, this impact of grief to our, not only our identity, but so many other way and areas, it's such an important perspective to, to notice how, we have an opportunity to honor and to let go of, experiences and relationships and things in life that, have, moved to the next stage.

Shelley McIntyre: 15:58

Yeah. Yeah. And there's this myth about finding closure. we never find closure. People are always with us. These situations have become part of us. They get wired into our DNA into who we are. We can find a sense of completion. With jobs and people and situations and places. but the idea that we're going to just close it out and move on. It's not a thing. It's not a thing. Everything is all always stays with us.

Yasmin Nguyen: 16:30

Shelly, when we think about the planning process for Gen Xers, what have you seen to be the most important things to consider when planning this particular phase?

Shelley McIntyre: 16:44

number one is always what aspects of your health have you ignored for the last little while, because. When people are coming out of the corporate world or a long career, they might shake themselves off and realize, Oh, my knees are shot or I've have forgotten to exercise for the last 10 years. if we're rebuilding the foundation of a house here, we have to start with the core, the, your body. so planning starts. at home and your first home is your body. So I always ask about health and then also for the planning and the foundation building aspect, we go back to core values and the essence of who you are and what strengths that you're bringing, because people need to be shored up a little bit in this time of transition before they can even start planning something new. They might be smarting from losing a job and feeling like they don't have a lot to offer the world heading forward. So we need to build up those stores, before they start going off and planning. So health, your values. your essence of who you are at your very best. And then who are the supporters around you who are going to help you through this? Because that social circle also needs to be there. And A lot of people have this rude awakening after they leave careers that they don't hear from their work friends anymore. And that is another loss. They thought these people that they worked side by side with for years and years were their close friends. And as soon as they leave the job, it's crickets. That's a super difficult moment for people when they realize. Oh, I've been neglecting my friends outside of work because I had been relying on my work people for that social interaction that I needed through happy hours and hanging out at the office and, the water cooler conversations. All that's gone now, and they have to rebuild that social network as well. this is all part of the foundational work that needs to happen before you can start figuring out, Oh, I'm going to start a company, I'm going to write a book, I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do.

Yasmin Nguyen: 19:13

Yeah, that's so common for people to focus on, what am I going to do in retirement versus the foundational? piece that you talk about, which is the physical piece, and then also the emotional and the relationship components there. and then exploring, what is it that I'm going to do? So it's backwards in some ways.

Kathleen Mundy: 19:32

Okay, I do have a question. What was the biggest misconception about Gen Xers retirement that you wish more people understood?

Shelley McIntyre: 19:42

think there was a misconception that it would look really similar to their parents retirement because they grew up with that model, watching their parents get older, watching their. Grandparents have a very clear like now we stop moment and I think there was an assumption as Gen Xers came up that, that would be something that would happen to them as well. And then I think they started grappling with the. I don't want to go on cruises, but I don't want to golf. So what does that mean for retirement for us? If we don't want to do the things that our parents did. And so then they had to go into this innovation moment of, okay, if we're throwing out that script of retirement means moving to the villages in Florida and just having dinner parties and golfing, if we can throw that out. Then what opens up for us because there's no precedent, we're inventing this, and we have to keep being vibrant and healthy for this extended lifespan that we have. So what do we get to do? It's not like a, what do we have to do now? What do we get to do? And I think that's a big shift and a change of conception for Gen Xers.

Kathleen Mundy: 21:13

You bring up a good point. And Shelly, just expanding on that, can you relate a story for us, for me specifically, because I'm trying to understand my daughter. when you were working with someone, can you just give us some idea of what their story might have been and how it unfolded with your guidance?

Shelley McIntyre: 21:31

Yeah, I work with a client who was running her own design business for over 20 years. And, running your own business can be really exhausting. And everything is on you. You're the provider of all of the work. And she was just getting burned out. And She wasn't like old enough to retire yet. She's still Gen X. She's still got a lot of working years ahead of her, but she needed something dramatically different to happen. And as we dug into like her value system and her identity and what, if she could wave a magic wand, what would she be doing instead? And she was just like, all I want to do is ride my bike and dance because she was a amateur ballroom dancer. She had started dancing when she was 48 and it's all she wanted to do. Her work was annoying her. She wanted to set it aside. And so we started what if you could do that? what if we could work toward you spending all your time riding your bike and dancing? And she realized in the course of our work together, Oh, I have all this experience as a graphic designer and a writer. I know a lot about dance. I'm an excellent researcher. And she thought. Do I need to like, maybe I should share my knowledge with others. And she ended up writing a book about how to get into ballroom dance for middle aged women, essentially. And it was everything from how to do the makeup to where to buy the shoes to etiquette on the dance floor. Like this whole guide, we worked together for a year over the course of her. Conceiving of this book and publishing it,

Kathleen Mundy: 23:33

Wow.

Shelley McIntyre: 23:35

it was a great exercise for her because she really got to dive into what she truly loved, what brought her a lot of energy and passion and. the funny thing about it is that once she was done with the book, it ignited this new energy for the business. And so now she's taking the business in a slightly different direction where it's not all on her anymore. She's bringing in help. She's getting people on board to work with her so that she can optimize the time that she's spending on the business and ride her bike and dance more. things are not going to unfold as people expect, but if they're willing to cast off some narrative of how it's supposed to go and try stuff like get squishy and creative and weird. All these new avenues open up for people where they don't expect them to.

Kathleen Mundy: 24:34

Quite frankly, I think what you're, you've touched on is an amazing void. For a lot of people, how do we help them? How do we give them the tools, the framework, you probably have found some of those that are very helpful in this transformational period that they're going. Can you reflect on some of those for

Shelley McIntyre: 24:53

Yeah, really the core ones that I use are a values exercise. I really like the Brene Brown values explorer exercise that and I take. almost every client through it, where they really get down to the core set of values. and Brene has a great kind of bonus exercise that she calls the BS detector, where you look at these values and you say, how do you walk the walk of the values? Like, how do you actually, it can't just be an idea that you like. How do you live it? because personal values aren't just ideas, they're tie breakers and helpers to when you have to make major decision in your life. can you choose the side that reinforces your values? And if you do that every time, you're going to end up in a more authentic life. Life that feels where you feel the most like yourself. So that values exercises one, an essence exercise that my coach did with me on our very first day together that I now do with all of my clients is. we are, we don't necessarily, we're not the best self reporters of our essence like the qualities that shine through when we're working at our best, who knows about that? The people who love us. Our closest friends are family members. So we go through this exercise where you, as the client, you ask other people in your life, how would you describe me when I'm operating at my best? And what the clients find just through the asking is they get this mirror back of this. Beautiful side of them where their friends and their family members are saying, you are so generous and thoughtful. Your joy about things really shines through when you love an idea, you want to tell everybody about it. So they get all of this material back. And I take that and mung it down to five words. Five essence words and then that becomes another guide for us as we're working together if you could you know, you've got this conflict or you have this decision if you could show up as the full creative generous caring joyful person that you are What would you do next? And it's a reminder, like we, we go through these cycles, right? Where we have days or weeks or months where we're feeling like, Oh, I'm not worthy. This is, I'm not good at anything. And that essence is a touch point. remember who you are, and not only who you are at your core, but what other people see and you have received evidence for. This is an evidence based approach. So we can't just write off our essence. If we can embody that essence in these moments, choose on the side of our values. We're going to be on a better path.

Yasmin Nguyen: 28:21

That's such a powerful process, Shelly. it goes counter to so many decades of work in life where we're in this reactive, responsive to our environments and expectations. And here we've carved out this space and time to do some deep reflection to know who we are and where we are and based on our values to then determine What to do next, what our alignment is and really getting that important clarity. And it sounds like that's a process that you really help take people through to, to determine what their North star is in many ways.

Shelley McIntyre: 29:02

Yeah. And it's, it's not a one player game here, right? When we do the essence exercise, that's inherently relational. It's not just who am I alone in my room? Who am I when I'm with you or when I'm. With you because it's different, right? when people reflect on who we are at our best, one person, one of my friends is going to report certain things about me that she experiences and another former work colleague is going to reflect back really different aspects, but they're both true, I think that's another misconception. We have all of this media about being your authentic self, right? So we're awash in kind of this pressure to be authentic and everybody has to find their authenticity and bring your whole self to work. We have multiple authentic selves. We contain multitudes. There is not one true way to be. I am my authentic self with my brother, but I'm also my authentic self with my friend Carol. My personality is slightly different. What we talk about is slightly different, the way that we operate in the world, but they're both true. So I think This pressure that people get to bring your authentic self to each situation and be that one authentic straight line person is not true because we have authenticity in so many different relationships. But understanding the core of that, if we can tap into our essence and our values, can put us on alert for when inauthenticity is creeping in. Or we're finding that mask is going back on and our eyebrows are raising again and we're, operating a foot out from our faces. It helps us ground back into that foundation that spawns a hundred authentic selves.

Yasmin Nguyen: 31:17

That's a really important distinction. Thank you for sharing that Shelley.

Kathleen Mundy: 31:20

That's so impactful. I can't believe how much I've learned through our conversation. and I'm wondering, if you could give Gen Xers a piece of advice to prepare for this journey that they're about to be on at some point in their life, what would that be?

Shelley McIntyre: 31:37

find your people. Really, this is not a solo adventure. We all need support people around us. It's not who you used to work with. I'll tell you that right now. It's not them. maybe you made a friend that will continue through that, the transformation that you're about to go on. But it's more likely the people that you have outside of work, let them know. What's going on with you? Be honest, because putting on a brave face and just hunkering down and getting through is not helping you, get the support you need. And it's not helping your friends understand how to support you and be there for you because they want to. gather your people. and nurture those relationships, proximity and consistency are friends here. So it's, it might sound counterintuitive as a planning step, but paying attention to your support system and paying attention to your health is ground zero for that.

Yasmin Nguyen: 32:45

Shelley, as people are looking for. their people, is there anything in particular that they want to be mindful of to at least be able to identify and notice that, Hey, this might be one of my people.

Shelley McIntyre: 32:59

Yeah, there's a tool that I often use called the ladder of trust. And that was created by a therapist named Elizabeth Kupferman. And It's a really handy tool where there is a ladder between you and everybody else, and as you climb the ladder, when you rise, you're going up in intimacy and the way you climb that ladder is through behavior only. Never words. So let's say that I'm making a new friend, my new friend Yasmin, and I say, Hey, do you want to get coffee? And Yasmin says, Oh yeah, coffee sounds great. I'll call you. And Yasmin never calls me. We have not gone up a rung. we have stayed down here, but if I think that we have gone up a rung in the ladder of trust, and I think, oh yeah, because Yasmin said that he wants to get coffee, we're better friends now. and then I might escalate, Hey Yasmin, I know we didn't get together for coffee, but how about a movie? And Yasmin says, Oh yeah, great, I'll call you. And I might think, Oh great, now he wants to see a movie. So we've gone up the ladder of trust toward intimacy. But Yasmin hasn't actually moved at all, he's still down here. If I start getting resentful About Yasmin not showing up and I'm feeling pain about that. That's all on me. The space between the rungs. is pain, and I am responsible for that if I have risen without somebody else. So if Yasmin calls me and says, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I've been so busy. Let's go to a movie tomorrow. I bought the tickets. See you there. And he shows up. up he comes. So it, we rise through these ladders. And the goal isn't to have every single person, at the top rung, right? We need people at every rung of the ladder of trust. Like you've got friends that you see for coffee once every six months and that's, and you have other friends that you see really consistently that you play pickleball with, that you hang out, that you go to a book club with, and that's fine. Trouble comes when we have these imbalanced relationships where we're giving a lot more than we're receiving. Or we're receiving and we are actually like, they're great, but they're a lot, right? So paying attention to where your relations, relationships land on this ladder of trust. Just keep an eye on it because you it takes a long time to really make a friend. there's this great book called platonic that talks about adult friendships and the author. The author says. Through research that it takes about 200 hours of time together to really form a solid lasting friendship. 200 hours is a lot of time and Are you willing to invest that in somebody who's going to go to the top of that ladder with you, or are you okay having people at slightly less contact, slightly less intimacy, but we need people in our environments that we see consistently that we talk to on a regular basis, to get through whatever transition is coming next. We can't do it alone.

Kathleen Mundy: 36:42

Oh, that's beautiful.

Yasmin Nguyen: 36:44

Shelly, you've shared so many incredible insights and tools and, I'm curious, how can our listeners connect with you and learn more about your work?

Shelley McIntyre: 36:55

Thank you for asking. I mainly write on LinkedIn and so you can find me. I'm Shelly McIntyre on LinkedIn and my website is shellymcintyre. com and I've started to post a little bit on Blue Sky, but I'm not totally there yet. So LinkedIn and the website are the primary.

Yasmin Nguyen: 37:15

Great. We'll make sure to include those in the show notes so people can connect with you directly then. any final thoughts as we wrap up our conversation today?

Shelley McIntyre: 37:25

I love what focus you two have on kind of reinvention, the reinvention aspect of retirement. So I really love what you're doing. I encourage you to keep going. And, the more Gen X folks that we can all reach and say, we see you, you are not the forgotten generation, the better shape we're all going to be in.

Kathleen Mundy: 37:47

yeah, I'm almost speechless, which never happens, but, I am so I'm just so thrilled that we had this conversation. you've provided so much deep information and. introspective, tools and thought processes. I've really appreciated it. It's been a

Shelley McIntyre: 38:04

Thank you so much. I really had a good time.

Yasmin Nguyen: 38:06

yeah, thank you Shelly for tying the bow and bringing all the pieces together. Cause I think the initial intention was to explore what was unique about the Gen X and you've definitely shared that. And also you've also shown how. Regardless of what generation you're in, we all experience a similar type of journey and there are some valuable and important opportunities for support and guidance along the way and that you are doing that magnificent work that's really helping so many people. So I'm just so grateful that we get a chance to share this with everyone.

Shelley McIntyre: 38:37

Thanks so much.

Yasmin Nguyen: 38:38

Awesome. Thank you for taking the time to join us today. If you enjoyed this episode or found it valuable, please subscribe, follow, and leave a comment or review on your favorite platform. If you have friends, clients, or loved ones who are retired or thinking about retirement, we invite you to share this show with them. Check out the show notes with links to resources mentioned in this episode at RealRetirementShow. com. Remember, retirement is a joyful journey we get to experience together. Join us next week for another Real Retirement Conversation.