Ida Abbott: 0:00

Lawyers tend to work longer than the general population. And they hold on as long as they can because so much of their life and their identity and their activities and everything they really do is wrapped up in their work. How do I let go? What do I do if I don't do this? This has been my life. if I don't do this, I'm useless. I have no value. I won't have any income. nobody's going to need me anymore. Nobody's going to call me. I've got a calendar that's too full. what happens if that goes away? So those are common problems for most people, or at least most professionals. And professional, that's been the area that I've concentrated in even beyond law

Yasmin Nguyen: 0:45

Welcome back to the real retirement show. My name is Yasmin here with my cohost Kathleen, whether you're retired or thinking about retirement, we delve into the multifaceted world of retirement beyond the finances. This isn't your typical retirement discussion. It's a vibrant journey into what retirement truly means in today's world. We bring you real stories from real retirees and experts discussing real challenges, surprises, joys, heartaches, and the myriad of emotions that come with retirement. From addressing family dynamics to mental and physical health to finding purpose, we tackle the issues that truly matter to retirees and those thinking about retirement. We're so delighted to have our special guest today. our guest is Ida Abbott. She is a retirement strategist who helps law firms design respectful and effective succession and retirement processes and helps individuals design happy and meaningful retirements. She's been a lawyer. and a legal consultant for almost 50 years and is an internationally recognized expert on legal talent, career development, and women's leadership. An elected fellow of both the American Law Foundation and the College of Law Practice Management, Ida has been an advisor, coach, speaker, and author of several seminal books, including Retirement by Design,. of the best retirement books of 2020 by the Wall Street Journal. We are so delighted to welcome you. Thanks for joining us, Ida.

Ida Abbott: 2:24

Thank you so much for inviting me to do this with you. I'm delighted to be here.

Kathleen Mundy: 2:29

pleasure to have you as our guest this afternoon, and I know that Yasmin's prepared some really interesting questions, and I'm so excited to get started with these

Yasmin Nguyen: 2:39

Yeah. Ida, we'd love to hear a little bit about your personal and career journey and what's inspired you to focus on, on this retirement journey, but more specifically also on the legal field.

Ida Abbott: 2:53

it was my it's my world. I've been I started practicing law a long time ago. I did that for 20 years and both in a very small firm and then in a very large firm for most of my career and when I Decided it was time to move on. I kidded around saying I was retiring, but didn't have a plan. Didn't have a clue. Had two T young teenage kids. And my husband was very supportive. He didn't, he figured I would figure it out. My, at some point and I did, and I started looking around to see what was Needed, but wasn't being provided and I had been in charge of professional development in my firm. I was with a firm that was quite progressive in terms of, developing new lawyers and in law, there's no postgraduate experiential requirement. All you have to do is pass a test, the bar. And so lawyers would come in with some book learning and they wouldn't know anything about the practice of law. So I decided to focus on helping them. And helping firms help them do that, become practitioners, become good lawyers. So I did that for a long time, gradually moved into leadership development within that field, focused a lot on mentoring, which was my sweet spot. And the first book I wrote was The Lawyer's Guide to Mentoring. and gradually, the leaders and the people I was working with started to ask me, what do I do next? many of them were in their fifties and sixties. They held a lot of responsibility and they were in prestigious positions. And they just felt they wanted to have something to do when they finished doing that. And there was no path. So I started looking into it and realized there was nothing other than books on financial planning and, financial consultants to help you plan. your, financial status for the next few years, for the rest of your life. And I pulled together a group of people who kept asking me that question and they decided they wanted to start a group. and I agreed to facilitate that. And it was in the course of doing my research to understand how I could help them and how they could help each other that I realized this was another major need and it wasn't being met. And even though most of my work was in law. Especially with the mentoring and the leadership work, it wasn't exclusively. So some of the people involved in this were in business. And I realized it was everywhere, but particularly in law, because lawyers tend to work longer than the general population. And they hold on as long as they can because so much of their life and their identity and their activities and everything they really do is wrapped up in their work. so how could I help them? And, that's where I started just moving in this direction. And then at some point decided. There were enough people doing the other work now, but there was nobody here. I decided to just, stop doing that, transition that off to other people, and started to focus. And it's been, I don't know, eight, seven or eight years, maybe longer, I don't know. but I've been working on this field now exclusively for almost that long.

Kathleen Mundy: 6:42

attitude for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yasmin, we talked about some of the challenges that starting this journey has for many people and I'm curious, what did you find to be the biggest challenge for the people in your practice now? The lawyers.

Ida Abbott: 7:02

some are personal and some are institutional. The personal ones aren't surprising. How do I let go? What do I do if I don't do this? This has been my life. if I don't do this, I'm useless. I have no value. I won't have any income. nobody's going to need me anymore. Nobody's going to call me. I've got a calendar that's too full. what happens if that goes away? So those are common problems for most people, or at least most professionals. And professional, that's been the area that I've concentrated in even beyond law. but the institutional ones have been the most challenging because retirement is stigmatized. And, people who reach a certain age, even, and some firms, fewer and fewer firms have mandatory retirement that's age based. Sometimes, and that means anything. Nobody believes it because in most firms there are more exceptions. And everybody believes they will be the exception. even where it's firm, where it's absolutely firm, many people can still continue just in a different capacity. They're no longer equity partners. They're no longer owners. And sometimes that works. Most of the time it works for a little while and then it just doesn't. but, it's just there's a view of people who reach a certain age as being too old. It's an A, it's a lot of this is a just a lot of this is just, it's a stigma that goes along with, you're the people who are making the most money, have the most clients, have the most control. You should get out of here so we can move in. And what happens is among some of the older partners, they look around and say, I built this. I earned this. Why should I give this over to you? And I'm not going to do it. without some kind of compensation, without some protection, that if I do that, I'm not going to lose, lose money and lose my connection. And so there's a kind of an unspoken conflict. So nobody talks about it.

Kathleen Mundy: 9:15

huh.

Ida Abbott: 9:15

It's silence. Nobody talks about it. And so what I've been trying to get firms to do is to normalize retirement as just another stage in a career

Kathleen Mundy: 9:31

huh.

Ida Abbott: 9:31

and to talk about it so that people don't feel embarrassed or like they're failures or they're being pushed out. Or they aren't resented by the people who want them to leave, and that there's a systematic way because, firms need the stability of knowing who's going to stick around and who's going and approximately when clients need to know, and they get lost in all of this. And so I try to emphasize that clients need to be considered and they don't want to be blindsided. And, the individual lawyer who's retiring needs to have some systematic way so that they leave feeling good about it, feeling prepared, feeling like they've left a good situation behind and not like they're going off into the unknown to become totally obsolete and irrelevant, though, and die because, that's they assume that this is the end. I try to emphasize that really this is the conclusion of one stage and the beginning of something new and filled with potential.

Yasmin Nguyen: 10:50

Ida. I'm curious what holds both the individuals as well as the organizations back from having these conversations because it seems like that's a an important starting point, but not always the case for individuals or their firms.

Ida Abbott: 11:09

lawyers deal with conflict professionally all day long, so they avoid it in anything personal. And they really don't want to get into uncomfortable situations, unless they have to. And sometimes, there's a performance problem or a competence problem. sometimes they're not all, because somebody's older, but there are a lot of problems where those conversations have to take place. And then they'll do it. but they're awkward about it. And this is true in a lot of different Areas, within legal organizations, in particular law firms, but it's, in the legal department of a corporation, they plan for succession. This is, it's normal. It's not, you don't have a lot of this, in agencies and other things. Again, they're normal. So this is a problem that is primarily in law firms, and there's a concern about succession who can do this. Who can represent my clients as well as I can, nobody. And for many people, it's hard to, to think about letting somebody else take over this. I've built this. I've spent, 30 years, 40 years of my life, maybe longer building this, and I can't just let it go. it gets to be a little more complicated than in many other situations.

Kathleen Mundy: 12:38

Ida, you hit the nail on the head for two reasons and, Yasmin and I have had conversations with lawyers and we've discussed retirement and everything that you've said is, true to our experience. And,

Ida Abbott: 12:54

That's a relief.

Kathleen Mundy: 12:55

It really is. And the part where the part about, having that, I don't want to have any conflict in my personal life is like true, but you're right. You can only take on so much in your lifespan. And if you're giving and conflicting in one area, you want a little balance in the other. But, I think is it, do you think that it has, Or is there limiting mindsets around this and how you've been able to help people shift their perspective?

Ida Abbott: 13:32

I think there definitely are limited mindsets, to begin, you know, one area is about, I emphasize the importance of curiosity. When you have been an expert all of your career, people come to you for answers. It's not as easy to change positions and be the one who doesn't know, who's now Entering something really new and scary and you are, you're having to be the person seeking help or seeking answers and who do you even go to where you're not, where you're willing to let your guard down enough to ask.

Kathleen Mundy: 14:20

Yeah. Be a little vulnerable in the process.

Ida Abbott: 14:22

That's right. it's very hard because we're taught to be confident and to know. The answers and we can work within the framework of what we do every day within legal frameworks, I can go to trial every day and fight and everything else and know exactly what's expected. Whoops. Sorry. And know exactly what's expected. But, when I go home. That's wide open. There are no rules, and that is a much scarier thing. So when I'm talking to somebody about facing another 30 years If I'm not going to be a lawyer for the next 30 years, or maybe I will, but I'm not going to be in this firm doing what I'm doing in the position I am, what is this new thing going to be? And lawyers tend to also be risk averse. And so it's not like they're, happy to go jump off, jump, on a parachute, get into a plane and jump down. some of them do, many of them are, and certainly there are a lot of lawyers who take a lot of risk and many of them are very entrepreneurial and, uh, It's not, I'm not talking about this as a universal situation at all, but for a lot of people, the thought of what, this next 30 years could be longer, could be, who knows, could be a week, is too, is scary. And I don't want to deal, this is what I know, I don't want to necessarily walk into something where I don't know any of the rules.

Yasmin Nguyen: 16:08

Yeah, it's. It's scary to not know what's on the other side, and I'm curious from your personal journey, but also in having conversations with various different legal professionals. there stories of people who have had a very successful, fulfilling experience on the other side of their career, as well as stories that you've noticed of those who are struggling with that transition then?

Ida Abbott: 16:38

Of course there are loads of them. A lot of people are very happy to retire. They can't wait to retire, right? They have a million plans or they have a plan or they have something they want to do or they're just, they're done. They're ready to move into whatever's out there. That's a pleasure, right? Those people are fun and you can talk to them, work with them. They don't really need a lot of help. They've got it. They've thought it through, but, but they're not the general rule.

Kathleen Mundy: 17:11

that just, it inspired me to be a little curious about this point of view. If you could share a story with us where your client had a breakthrough and working with you made a difference in his or her outlook for the next 30 years.

Ida Abbott: 17:30

I actually had one that's the reverse of what you're asking about,

Kathleen Mundy: 17:34

Okay, that's perfect.

Ida Abbott: 17:35

it's my favorite. I had somebody call me who was a, trust and estates lawyer. And she had been in her firm. She helped build the firm. It was about, I don't know, 15, 20 lawyers. And. She had been very successful, very happy, and now she wanted to retire, and she was a little, she was very nervous about it, and her anxiety was making it hard for her to even stay in practice. So we started to talk. We had a very nice conversation. When I asked her what it was that was all of a sudden, after all this time, it sounded like this was Very, relatively abrupt and she told me that she'd been working on a case for a long time on a with a client and Somebody got unhappy and there was a lawsuit and so now it's in litigation and the litigation is making her so anxious and it's taking so much out of her that she can't really cope now, trust in the States is not a conflict. Bill field, it's probate, it's writing wills, it's developing, state plans and stuff. So it's, I could understand why this suddenly, sudden change would be so upsetting to her. And as we talked, I said to her, aren't there lawyers who specialize in A state litigation or probate litigate all these, in the litigation of these issues. And she said, yes, there are. I said, is there anybody, who specializes in that? And she said, there's someone in my firm. I said, what if you transferred that case to that lawyer? And it was like one of these, why didn't I think of that? And all of a sudden I could feel in her voice. and I said, I said, when you're really ready to retire, she just had a situation that she couldn't cope with. So we had that one session, and that was it. And I said, when you're really ready, call me back,

Kathleen Mundy: 19:46

god.

Ida Abbott: 19:46

that was my favorite because it was a lot of times people really don't know what the situation is. And when you're coaching somebody, when you're working with somebody, helping them identify what's really going on. Is the key to the whole thing, because sometimes that's all it takes is to turn it around. But I have to say, most of the people I work with individually, they're not as, they're not in as serious a situation as I've been describing to you. Most of those people don't necessarily seek help. Even when it's offered. that's why most of my work is with the firms themselves. and sometimes somebody will call me, but usually it's because they have, they need some guidance. They need to figure out how to approach what's going on. but I know there are a lot of people who do seek coaches who are much more, conventional in their approaches and will, work with them with instruments about retirement readiness, like some of the things that you've you're providing and, they'll need to go into it. More deeply, but I found that the people I've been working with anyway, most of them are not, they're stuck, but it's not that hard to help turn them around with many people. It's reframing, it's going through the things that are frightening them or holding them back and helping them understand and see a way out. Occasionally, some of my favorites are working with couples. Because there are what I found interesting. A couple of times I've worked with clients. who's, who have had problems because they and their spouse don't agree. In fact, I worked with two women simultaneously, where both of them were married and one of them couldn't wait to retire. she was very successful. She was under so much stress. Her last child was going to college. Her husband had been a stay at home dad. He did not want her to retire because. Of what it was, what the impact would be on their lifestyle. He was, that's what worried him. The other woman was a lawyer who was at really her peak. Her husband had been a lawyer who retired a year or two earlier. He wanted to do things. He wanted to travel and go places and, do a lot of things with her. And she wasn't ready. And to me, those are interesting challenges, helping them have conversations. And in my book, actually, there are a lot of exercises for couples. To have with each other. So that, to do with each other that facilitates a conversation.

Kathleen Mundy: 23:00

hopefully in alignment with outlooks as well.

Ida Abbott: 23:03

that's right. Because, a lot of times I found that my clients will have made a decision and they've come up with a plan, but they're assuming that. Their partner is going to agree

Kathleen Mundy: 23:18

yeah.

Ida Abbott: 23:18

a deep conversation about it. the example I give is that we both want to travel and I say, that's great. What kind of travel? And it turns out one, wants to go backpacking in the mountains and the other wants to go first class, a cruise or something. And so the words are the same, but the meanings are very different. And, so sometimes it's a matter of making sure they, they get to the source of the challenge that they're having.

Yasmin Nguyen: 23:51

Yeah, Ida, you had mentioned a, exercises in your book as well as reframing. Is there a particular framework, exercise or experience that, that you've either taken an individual client through or when you're working at the firm level, taking them through that's really created some sort of breakthrough? is there something that you could share with us that, that Has been a favorite tool, exercise, or experience that's created a transformation for people.

Ida Abbott: 24:22

I don't have a particular exercise. and it's very different when I'm working with a leadership team trying to figure out processes because they're dealing with different issues. Um, what I encourage them to do is to make sure they talk to all of their partners and get, everybody's input before they go off and come up with a policy. young people, old people, everybody, cause they all have a stake in it. And if they all aren't buying into it, it isn't going to happen. But with an individual, my book is based on the premise. That's a framework for people to use called design thinking. And so if, if we do more in depth work, I have them take the book, go through it, not, page by page, but to see where they are in the journey, to see what part of it is most useful to them. And that's what we focus on. but it's basically, it's design thinking, which is a different kind of approach to planning. To thinking through problems and coming up with solutions. It is easy to personalize it. And I think this is something that has to be personalized. It's why I have a bias against instruments, even really good ones, because I think a lot of times they make assumptions about where people are and what people who are retiring. Are interested in, and a lot of times that's not really relevant. And I used myself as an example where I was asked to, to test, to try out something one time. And when I got the results, they debrief me and, I had flunked a couple of parts of readiness and I thought, that's interesting, so it turned out the two areas I flunked were travel. and volunteering, and I said, I travel every day in my job. I'm a consultant. I'm on a plane all the time. My family has always taken vacations, long vacations, like sometimes two, three months. I've, gone during work. I've worked it out with my firm, so we always traveled. I've been to almost all the places on my list. Travel is not something I put off. And volunteering, I've been on nonprofit boards, and I've done pro bono, I ran a pro bono work, the pro bono program in my law firms, it was one of the largest in the country. So I've always done that work. I don't need to worry about how am I going to give back when I retire, because it's just a continuation.

Kathleen Mundy: 27:09

Right. That's

Ida Abbott: 27:10

I said, so why would this, if you tell me that I flunk these three areas, these two areas, I immediately get on the defensive. I'm a high achiever. You don't tell a high achiever that they failed. And, and this person who was debriefing me said, Oh, my God, I never thought, and so I, this was several years ago, many years ago. I know the field has evolved quite a bit since then. But, yeah. I've always felt that this is one of the most personal areas and we, you can't make, I can't make assumptions about anybody. I've been telling you about all these general, things that I see, the general behaviors and attitudes and feelings and stuff. But I don't assume that. When I work with somebody

Yasmin Nguyen: 27:59

Mhm.

Ida Abbott: 28:00

because I have no idea where they're coming from and it's up to them, to let me know and for me to help them figure it out, but there is no reason, especially for somebody who's been very successful. all their life, to be who's now in a position where they're feeling vulnerable. The last thing I want to do is assume that I know something, or I can help them because I'm the expert in X, Y, or Z. I think that's, that is a critical piece of it. And why I like design thinking, because it's easy to jump in and work with wherever you are. at any point in the in that whole process,

Yasmin Nguyen: 28:43

Yeah.

Kathleen Mundy: 28:44

you're

Ida Abbott: 28:45

flexible. It's very flexible and adaptable. You can change it whenever you want. It's not like a plan that gives you step a B. C. D.

Kathleen Mundy: 28:54

but it all evolves around the communication piece, which you've outlined several times through this discussion today, and it really brings things home. If you have alignment has to happen only through the open communication you have, and the fact that you are guiding it through with questions and queries in that process is really beneficial to those participants.

Ida Abbott: 29:19

There's a piece even before the communication that's just as important, and that is the first step in the design thinking framework in that process is empathy, which in if you're talking about yourself, it's self understanding, self awareness, and it's really hard sometimes to have a effective communication if you are clueless. about what's really important to you and what's driving you and what you're afraid of and what you're strong at and what you're looking for. All the questions you need to be asked first before you can then leap into what you want to do. You have to start really with a deeper self understanding. Communication with yourself, which in some ways for people who have never done it, is pretty scary and difficult. there are a lot of us who've been asking those questions, our whole lives and it feels very natural. and like you assume everybody does that, but they don't.

Yasmin Nguyen: 30:26

Wow. That's so powerful. Kathleen, did you have any final questions that we wrap up?

Kathleen Mundy: 30:32

Yasmin, as I'm listening to this, I made an assumption that the people who were starting this journey might know themselves, but truth is, oftentimes they don't because their career is consuming that they really haven't taken the time to really understand who we, who they are and what their core values are, if they've shifted and what they want them to be in the future. And Yasmin and I had a conversation about that. Very topic this morning, and it just came full circle, and I'm so glad that you mentioned it because it's highly important to us as we do this work.

Ida Abbott: 31:09

Absolutely. And, you know, a lot of the people I deal with who are lawyers, they've been working in at something that gives them a lot of purpose, but isn't necessarily in sync with the values they want to promote. And this is a time, really, and I try to help them understand that this is a time where if that's what you find, this is where you can now bring your life into sync with the things that are the most important to you.

Kathleen Mundy: 31:45

Again, we had almost verbatim

Ida Abbott: 31:48

is that right?

Kathleen Mundy: 31:49

yes, we had this conversation just this morning. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being so succinct in your descriptions and your outlines to us today in our audience. I'm sure they're going to gleam a lot from

Ida Abbott: 32:02

Oh, thank you, Kathleen and Yasmin,

Yasmin Nguyen: 32:04

And one final question, Ida, how can our listeners find and learn more about you and the powerful work that you do?

Ida Abbott: 32:15

My website is IdaAbbott. com. there are links there to most of my work, to videos that they can watch on YouTube for free, to, videos they can download of other podcasts and, different programs, to articles and books that I've written. So you know, or they can call me. They can email me, Ida at IdaAbbott. com or, or call

Yasmin Nguyen: 32:43

Wonderful. as we wrap up, are there any just final thoughts that you'd like to share, Ida, with our audience or anyone who may be considering retiring or maybe an organization that's navigating that with their teams?

Ida Abbott: 32:56

I think the important thing is to start thinking about it. Early to give yourself a lot of time and I mentioned the design thinking mindset. About curiosity and trying thing. I don't know if I mentioned that action orientation, not just thinking about it, but doing things. But another one is collaboration and not to, you don't have to do this alone. There are there are coaches that can help you. There are people who have already retired that, you can reach out. They can tell you about their journey, what worked, what was a problem, that kind of thing. Get help. And, talk to people about it. Most people are happy to talk to you about these things, but, a lot of people hold back because they're afraid to talk about it because they're embarrassed. We don't, all the things that I mentioned earlier. So finding people to work with and talk with, including your spouse, is, your partner, that's important. But start early. Don't wait until the last minute.

Kathleen Mundy: 34:02

Yeah, start early. I think that's a key phrase. Start early, know yourself and start early in the

Yasmin Nguyen: 34:09

Wow. what a gift to be able to spend this time with you, Ida. And thank you so much for not only your wisdom, but your contributions in so many different ways. And we're so grateful for this opportunity to, Collaborate with you and to be able to share an important message for anyone who's navigating this transition.

Ida Abbott: 34:27

Well, Yasmin, thank you. Thank you for, both of you, for what you're doing in this area and all the people that you're able to help this way. and thank you for inviting me to be part of that.

Kathleen Mundy: 34:38

Our pleasure. Our pleasure.

Yasmin Nguyen: 34:41

Thank you for taking the time to join us today. If you enjoyed this episode or found it valuable, please subscribe, follow, and leave a comment or review on your favorite platform. If you have friends, clients, or loved ones who are retired or thinking about retirement, we invite you to share this show with them. Check out the show notes with links to resources mentioned in this episode at RealRetirementShow. com. Remember, retirement is a joyful journey we get to experience together. Join us next week for another Real Retirement Conversation.